Accusers v. Advocates: The Real Sides in the Culture War

Posted Aug 2 2012 by Morgan Guyton with 58 Comments

    One of my favorite pastors Jonathan Martin of Renovatus Church in Charlotte, NC recently preached a sermon called “Don’t Stand Up For Jesus.” Listen to it here. His point was that Jesus can stand up for Himself. What we should be doing is standing with Jesus while He stands up for sinners as their advocate and intercessor, instead of thinking we have to “defend” Jesus by signing online petitions, saying we’re not going to take it anymore through our facebook status updates, or eating chicken sandwiches. Jonathan was responding to the tendency of Christians to get sucked into the never-ending, all-consuming argument in our society that we call the culture war. As Jonathan talked, I realized that the real battle in the culture war is not between liberals and conservatives, but between advocates and accusers. Those who take the side of Jesus join Him in His role as the advocate for sinners (1 John 2:1); those who take the side of Satan join him in his role as the accuser (Revelation 12:10). The battle between Jesus and Satan takes place on every side of the surface battle that we think is going on.

    John 8:2-11 illustrates perfectly the type of stance that Jesus would take in our culture wars. The Pharisees brought him an adulteress who was caught in the act of the adultery. The Biblical law of Moses was clear. They were commanded to stone her to death. So they asked Jesus what they should do, knowing that He could not go against the Torah. Jesus’ famous response was to say, “You that are without sin cast the first stone.” So one by one, they walked away, and Jesus asked the woman who remained to condemn her, saying, “Neither do I condemn you. Now go and sin no more.” Somebody will point out that Jesus’ lack of condemnation doesn’t mean he didn’t acknowledge her sin. That’s true, but she is given the means of being convicted by her sin precisely in his lack of condemnation for that sin.

    That’s the amazing thing about grace. Our realization that God forgives our sins is how we discover we actually have sins that need to be forgiven. Accusation does not bring about conviction for sinful behavior. Accusation brings about defensiveness. When people are attacked for their behaviors or beliefs, they take consolation in their persecution, which becomes “injustice,” regardless of whether it’s warranted or not. Then the question becomes whether the accuser is being self-righteous and judgmental. Of course there are circumstances in which personal sin has to be called out, but we are told in Matthew 18:15-20 to do this in private with great discretion.

    The primary public stance that Christians should be taking is to tell people in the world that God loves them and has provided a means for us to live in authentic, richly meaningful community together. Sin should be dealt with inside the community of people who share the common presumption of God’s mercy that makes speaking the truth in love possible and productive. We should absolutely vote for our convictions in political elections. And I think we can speak out on our convictions publicly insofar as they are relevant to actual decision-making processes like city council meetings and so forth. But to spend all our time sharing articles and making snarky comments on the Internet in the never-ending, time-sucking meme war that has nothing to do with building the kingdom is a waste of God’s time (and yes, I’ve done it too).

    What’s more relevant than whether or not we eat at Chick-Fil-A is whether or not we take pleasure in trashing other people. Satan, whose name means “accuser” in Hebrew, gets his power from our love of accusation. Accusation always begets more accusation. A world filled with accusers who are blind to their own sin and the mercy God has shown them is a world under the dominion of Satan. On the contrary, a world filled with people who stick up for the dignity of their ideological opponents is a world in which Satan is getting beaten up by love. Love is a much more compelling argument than the most ruthlessly impeccable logic. As Christians, our vocation is to love Satan out of the world in the same way that Jesus showed us. It wasn’t the sinners who crucified Jesus; it was the Pharisees whose purpose in living flawless lives was to gain the license to denounce and accuse others, the work of Satan.

    There are accusers on every side of every argument. They are the ones who cannot share their own convictions without demonizing other people and making all sorts of cynical assumptions about their motives. Right now, there are a ton of liberal accusers who aren’t interested in understanding where Chick-Fil-A’s Cathy brothers are coming from in their passion for supporting marriage in a society filled with divorce. They’re just “bigots.” It’s a label that encompasses the whole of their identity and delegitimizes every kind, Christlike thing that they’ve ever done. There are also conservative accusers who cannot imagine what it feels like to be called an “abomination” for having an identity that you’ve genuinely wrestled with and agonized over for years until you finally come to the place of saying this is just who I am and I’m not going to repress it or hide it any longer. People who are advocates like Jesus don’t condone bigotry or any other sin. They simply realize that love is always the first step and arguing with people outside of a covenant disciple relationship is not the Biblical method for spiritual growth and sanctification from sin.

    There’s definitely a place for public prophecy in confronting the sins of society, and I’m not always sure where the line falls between prophecy and accusation. But I do know that when Jesus was confronted with a sinner caught in the act of adultery, he took her side over her accusers. We should do likewise anytime we see people having their character assassinated, especially when they are ideological opponents, because “the insults that fall on [them] have fallen on [our savior]” (Romans 15:3). Paul offers a critically important distinction in 1 Corinthians 13:6, “Love does not delight in evil, but rejoices with the truth.” Yes, tell the truth, by all means. Speak truth to power. But don’t take pleasure in exposing other peoples’ evil, however legitimate, because when you delight in evil, you are doing the work of Satan. The loudest words that people should hear from Christians are not the accusations that the Accuser exploits to keep people eternally separated from God, but the invitation from our Advocate for sinners to come to His table and eat.

    —-
    Morgan Guyton is the associate pastor of Burke United Methodist Church in Burke, Virginia, and a Christian who continues to seek God’s liberation from the prison of self-justification Jesus died to help him overcome. Morgan’s blog “Mercy Not Sacrifice” is located at http://morganguyton.wordpress.com. Follow Morgan on twitter at www.twitter.com/maguyton.

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      About the Author

      Morgan Guyton

      Morgan GuytonMorgan Guyton is the associate pastor of Burke United Methodist Church in Burke, Virginia, and a Christian who continues to seek God’s liberation from the prison of self-justification Jesus died to help him overcome. Morgan’s blog “Mercy Not Sacrifice” is located at http://morganguyton.wordpress.com. Follow Morgan on twitter at www.twitter.com/maguyton.View all posts by Morgan Guyton →

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      • 21st Century Episcopalian

        Morgan, I appreciate the tone and content of your post/article above. We do need to treat our fellow human beings with grace and respect, even when we vehemently disagree.

        Yesterday, in your posted comment (http://www.redletterchristians.org/american-christianity-is-at-war-against-itself/#comment-605510970) you wrote, “As Paul says, ‘What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church?’ (1 Cor 5:12).”

        That is EXACTLY correct in TWO ways:

        (1) We disciples need to STOP looking at the political structures as though they could save/rescue/bless us. Render to Caesar, and render to God, but hold on loosely. Whether democrat, republican, libertarian, green… we will always have political (et al) problems as we live in a fallen need-of-redemption world. Politics and government are not our savior.

        (2) Paul’s strongly worded message in your quoted passage (1 Cor 5:12, which is actually only a PORTION of Paul’s sentence), is that we the disciples, the body of Christ, ARE to judge those on the inside. Reread 1 Cor 5 which, ironically (or not so much) places the context squarely in issue of sexual immorality (among other things). Therefore we the body of Christ on earth DO have responsibility to speak strongly against sin INSIDE the church.

        So I personally don’t care nearly as much if same-sex marriage laws are passed in the nation, but I deeply care that we hold to our long-established (since Genesis 2) foundation of one-woman-one-man for life marital standards.

        Why does this person, 21st Century Episcopalian, keep hammering on this issue, you might ask? Well the screen name should clue you in. I work, serve, and worship in the middle of ground-zero of revisionist “progressive” American Christianity in the Episcopal Church. It’s a major issue and it won’t go away without a “fight”.

        When I say fight, I think Acts 15 where almost everyone lost sight of the reality/definition of the gospel and it was Apostle Paul’s strong, firm, yet loving words where he, jealous of the gospel, was willing to go against the growing tide of incorrect thinking (across board inside the church community) and argue the truth.

        Respectfully, 21st.

        • guest

          It’s good to see that there are Episcopolians who are contending for the gospel, when the church appears to have officially abandoned it.

          • 21st Century Episcopalian

            Thanks, guest. As you’ve likely followed in the news, we Episcopalians have been floundering around. We’ve been influenced by the poor scholarship of theologians like Marcus Borg, and have therefore lost sight of scripture as reliable authoritative truth. Like a rudderless boat, we now drift on high seas being slapped back and forth by all sorts of waves of cultural peer pressure. Sad times, but there’s always hope.

        • http://twitter.com/MAGuyton Morgan Guyton

          I’m glad you’re sticking around with the Episcopals. The ghettoizing of American Christianity is a real tragedy. It’s interesting that you had the same insight I had about Acts 15. Paul eschewed the ruling of the Jerusalem council. Even after the debate, they came back and said no sacrificial meat. Did Paul follow their final ruling? Nope! Peter was the first Pope and Paul was the first Protestant.

          • 21st Century Episcopalian

            Morgan, this is why, when major portions (even the key leaders!) of the Body of Christ become “blinded” by any current issue, by caving into cultural peer-pressures (for whatever reason/s), we must go firmly yet gracefully (ever mindful of our own shortcomings), and bring the conversation away from groupthink bad theology, away from cultural trends, and bring it back to the scripture. In this instance, for Paul in Acts 15, it was quoting Amos 9.

            And note there is never the sense that Paul’s bringing “sharp dispute and debate” (Acts 15:2) was unloving or judgmental or hateful. It was necessary; integral to correct a growing tide of groupthink bad theology.

            So, for the early church in Acts 15, circumcision became an add-on for righteousness. This brought less grace, more law and had to be corrected. (Note: issue was circumcision, not sacrificial meat; that was a concession afterwards).

            So, for current Western church, approving sinful behavior (same-sex sex, in this stream’s context) as acceptable…by placing it on par with God’s dictate Gen 2 (and Christ’s rubber stamp Mk 10 / Mt 19) of one-man, one-woman, for-life marriage/sexuality brings cheap grace.

            Therefore I will continue to debate and be in sharp dispute, hopefully in loving and compassionate ways for the glory of Christ and the sanctification of his Bride.

      • Anonymous

        Thank you Morgan for being, in my opinion, fair in your evaluation. There is nothing “hateful” in what the Cathy brothers said or in the attitude that I saw at Chic Fil A yesterday. I am sure there are some who are hateful toward people who are gay who supported yesterday’s action. But they are the exception.

        • http://twitter.com/MAGuyton Morgan Guyton

          Thanks for reading. Let’s be advocates for the dignity of all sinners and try to understand each other and show the mercy we’ve been shown. Bottom line.

        • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_YEQE2XP46AVVGFYICSH4R3CNV4 rrtrack

          You are exactly right bernhe! It’s a free speech issue more than anything, and an issue of tolerance and hypocrisy. The author of this article gave a perfect example when he talked of the prostitute about to be stoned. Jesus did not turn to her and say “continue on”, he said “go, and sin no more”. As Christians, we are taught to love our neighbor. Homsexuality is a sin, that is not a judgement, it is a fact. I am a firm believer that I do not have to answer for the sins of others, and heaven knows I have enough of my own to answer for. However, if we do not share with others that homosexuality is a sin (IN A KIND WAY), then we are not loving our neighbor. Believing that marriage should be between one man and one woman is not hate, it is love. We should not pester and hound, or condemn, we should simply share and let people know that we love them and will be a help if wanted and needed. Meanwhile, the left has no tolerance for any values other than their own, and they label anyone who feels differently as a bigot. All this does is take away from the severity of REAL bigotry and hate. Cathy did not say he hated gays, he did not say he will not allow them in his restaurants or hire them, he said his belief is that marriage should be as God meant it. He is as entitled to that belief, as someone else is entitled to the belief that those of the same sex should be able to marry each other. To not allow him his own belief is intolerance.

      • Drew

        Morgan,

        I thought the article was excellent, although it is hard to figure out how this looks like an action. A lot of people think any type of call for repentance as an accusation no matter what. In any case, a lot to think about in your article.

        • http://twitter.com/MAGuyton Morgan Guyton

          I think the basic paradigm is to make love the loudest word that anonymous crowds hear from you and deal with sin and whatever else between those whom you trust enough to disclose your own sins and receive accountability from them.

      • Anonymous

        Morgan,
        I like the distinction you’ve made here between Accusers and Advocates much better than some others that were made recently on this site. It’s helpful because it causes me to examine myself and my actions.

        The difficult part comes, as you acknowledge, with the need for public prophesy. And at some times, more personal sins, when committed by large numbers of people, become societal problems. But even then, public recognition must come out of love and desire to heal rather than condemn.

        • http://twitter.com/MAGuyton Morgan Guyton

          It is a difficult tension. I’m not sure exactly how to resolve it.

      • tarl_hutch

        I loved this post the other day when I saw it on your blog and still love it now. I think you have really hit the heart of the issue, as is evidenced by the comments you are getting so far. Thank you for putting this so eloquently and putting to words what the spirit has been telling us. It will be tough ti make it happen, since we naturally want to be pharisees when we feel we are right, but I have hope. Thank you for reminding me.

      • http://www.facebook.com/joe.richards.313 Joe Richards

        Emphasis on Jesus’ IMPERATIVE: “Now go and sin no more.”

        The admonition that accompanies forgiveness is REPENTANCE and a behavioral imperative to STOP SINNING. This is something that Christians, in their prophetic roles, among other roles, must do in obedience.

        IF God says, “Now go and sin no more,” than we echo the same. If Jesus says, “You brood of vipers,” then we echo the same. If Jesus says, “Get thee behind me Satan!” then we echo the same. We can NOT pick and choose the sayings of Jesus most to our liking and think “I’m OK, you’re OK.” Neither of us are OK who has NOT “Gone and SINNED NO MORE!”

        The PC phrase “cultural wars” is just a feckless euphemism for the Battle between Good and evil, between Righteousness and unrighteousness, between Holy living and unholy living, between Godliness and Godlessness. Its wanton, cowardly and projects upon Jesus a Ken-like (as in Barbie) persona NOT in keeping with His entire persona which is simultaneously Lion and Lamb, Judge and Judged, Lord and Savior, Emulator of the Father and He who is to be Emulated.

        God will NOT judge anyone who EMULATES Jesus because Jesus NEVER sinned and to emulate is to replicate the behavior of the one emulated, and hence there is NO SIN IN EMULATION OF THE SINLESS HOLY ONE!

        The “agora” was a place where Paul preached to the masses and using reason, cunning and the Word of God convinced some men of their sins and called them to repentance. Some did; others did not. The same with Jesus. His preaching ministry was largely OUTDOORS in public, His private meetings, though significant and pedantic, did NOT negate the power of His public preaching and the fact He was not above shaming some people into the awareness of their sins sometimes leading to repentance. Peter comes to mind. The Samaritan woman at the well also comes to mind. There is a Godly shaming in the phrase,

        “You are right when you say you have no husband. The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true.”

        If you doubt the shaming element of this, the next time you meet a divorced man or woman living with another person say the same thing and watch his/her reaction. Will it be similar to the woman at the well or more like a raving lunatic?

        Jesus’ sons and daughter need not delight in evil to expose it. But it will NOT be repented of left unexposed!

        • http://twitter.com/MAGuyton Morgan Guyton

          Why do you put the emphasis on the “Sin no more” as though the rest of the story isn’t the only way that it’s possible for Him to say that effectively? The emphasis is on the stoning that Jesus stopped. When we read John say, “You brood of vipers,” we should first consider how we are a brood of vipers rather than go out and call other people a brood of vipers. Jesus consistently opposed the people who were the most invested in their own righteousness. Matthew 23 is a chapter that all of us should read to ponder how much that we do and say exudes the same spirit of the Pharisees that Jesus describes there. Those who live under mercy don’t need to make a big show of how tough their stance is on sin; they simply help others to let go of the things that keep them from being filled with Christ’s love.

          • Frank

            So How do help those unapologetically in homosexual behavior let go of their sin?

            • tarl_hutch

              If you wanted to help and they ask for your help, you tell them what you believe in a tactful, loving way. If they don’t ask then you could imitate the love of Christ to them and also talk about how Christ freed you from sin and has changed your life. Your example of grace and the forgiveness you experienced can be a great witness to others, without having to call them out on their actions. I think the biggest way is to get them to see Jesus and begin to know him. He will convict what he convicts and help them to change, as the change is fully a gift from God, not something we can do alone. We are to simply demonstrate Jesus to all others and let God handle the rest. Basically what Morgan says here.

              • Frank

                Ok that’s fair. How should churches respond?

              • tarl_hutch

                Why would churches react any differently?

                Do you mean outreach and programming wise? There are as many answers to that as there are denominations. The shortest answer would be to work out their faith in community, to establish how best to demonstrate love while staying true to their particular stream of faith. Then living out this faith by imitating the ministry of Christ and humbly introducing others to Christ, while continuing to grow together. I, personally am a big fan of spiritual direction and establishing mentors, as well as the common small groups. These are just a few open ended ideas, but each church will have to work out what is best for them while staying rooted in the bible and Christian tradition, while also allowing room to question and grow. Do you have any other ideas that may work?

              • 21st Century Episcopalian

                Good ideas. Less is more in that smaller groups of loving living communities can mentor and disciple one another more successfully than larger more-impersonal churches.

              • Frank

                Ok I guess I am wondering what happens when sexuality and marriage is talked about or taught in church. You support teaching the biblical design for sexuality right?

              • tarl_hutch

                That should really be left mainly to the individual church community or denomination. I would imagine most would teach out of the bible and Christian tradition, but some may choose to leave room for questioning and for working with others to figure out what to do with “alternative” expressions. We can only teach what we know, but leave room for grace to work out other cases. Vague I know, but I have no total solution.

              • Frank

                Ok another fair answer but you do realize that tose that, want to normalize homosexual behavior through validating their relationships as marriages would never stick around a church that teaches the biblical standard for sexuality and marriage.they want complete acceptance and tolerance of their sin and with them there seems to be no middle ground.

              • Frank

                Ok another fair answer but you do realize that tose that, want to normalize homosexual behavior through validating their relationships as marriages would never stick around a church that teaches the biblical standard for sexuality and marriage.they want complete acceptance and tolerance of their sin and with them there seems to be no middle ground.

              • tarl_hutch

                You might be surprised what people will do, you might be surprised how many gay folk are already in churches that are bible believing. I think we have to let each church and community decide how to proceed. True, some will choose to affirm gay marriage, as they do now, but the good news is you don’t have to worry about it. Ultimately, we are not responsible for the actioms of others, so you only need to concern yourself with being Jesus to a hurting world. This doesn’t mean you have to agree with everyone, but frees you up from feeling like you have to save them. Luckily Jesus does that, so we only have to deal with ourselves, which is hard enough. That would be my suggestion, find a church you enjoy, focus on being like Christ, let your example be your witness. Your behavior and belief will be a better witness for your faith, than your words. When asked your opinion, give it, but with grace. When our words cause stumbling blocks, we should refocus on our actions and model a desirable church that people want to join, not guilt or convict people with their sins. They will be addressed by Jesus we just show the way and help guide them through it. The one thing i find the most freeing though, is the fact I don’t have to change your mind, I am not responsible for you, just to try and so Jesus and let him show you where to go.

              • tarl_hutch

                That should really be left mainly to the individual church community or denomination. I would imagine most would teach out of the bible and Christian tradition, but some may choose to leave room for questioning and for working with others to figure out what to do with “alternative” expressions. We can only teach what we know, but leave room for grace to work out other cases. Vague I know, but I have no total solution.

          • 21st Century Episcopalian

            For me, regarding the grace approach of John 8 (woman caught in adultery) it’s all about finding how to love, how not to throw stones, how to protect ALL
            from those who are about to throw stones, but also how to communicate
            the “Go and sin no more” effectively and lovingly at the same time. It
            needs to be both-and. Not one-or, but both-and.

            Interestingly, the Bible story tells that the OLDER men (Jn 8:9) set down their stones first, then the younger. There’s a wisdom that comes with age. As we mature, we realize the depth and darkness of our own sin patterns and predispositions, and we (hopefully) become slower to judge others in self-righteous ways.

        • questioning

          It is telling that the only people Jesus ever condemned were the religious leaders who did not live what they preached. Jesus was sinless… we are not and can never be. Does your church ever remarry someone who has divorced and remarried for reasons other than unfaithfulness? This is biblical adultery and pretty much, by your definition, negates your church’s authority to “expose” and refudiate sin.

          • Questioning

            @Joe Richards above

          • Questioning

            @Joe Richards above

      • PillarOfCloud

        The adulteress was no doubt aware of her sin, ashamed of her actions, and fearful of the consequences (on earth and in judgement). Homosexuals actively seeking to fulfill their desires share none of those same redeeming qualities. Even God fearing men and woman who struggle with the temptation of homosexuality have convinced themselves, with the help of the liberal agenda, and unfortunately, certain “denominations” of the Lords church, that what the lusts in which they burn are not only ok but good. Repentance is the vessel by which God gives grace and mercy. It isn’t specifically mentioned, but I like to think that the woman repented from her adulteress ways. We were willing to kill our old selves and be resurrected to walk in newness of life, is it too much to ask God fearing homosexuals to do the same? Prayers and blessings upon all of God’s children and those who have not yet been adopted.

        • http://twitter.com/MAGuyton Morgan Guyton

          Why would you condition your willingness to imitate Christ’s example on what others do in response? That’s what you’re saying here.

          • PillarOfCloud

            We tend to shy away from the word excommunicate when discussing willful disobedience among brethren. Paul clearly states in 1 cor 6 that we should cut off all ties with brothers living in sin. I will extend my hand of compassion to any non-believer and try to show them The Way. I take issue with churches that do not “clean house” (for lack of a better term) when it comes to matters of blatant disregard for truth. I have my hands full keeping myself unspotted from the world but I will not shy away from telling a brother (in a loving way) that he is living in sin and pray with and for him. It is not enough to be hearers of the word only, it requires action.

          • keith

            Morgan, You totally ignored his point and shifted the conversation. His point the same that many have made and that is, liberals have affirmed the homosexuals to the point that they believe they dont have to change. They can live continually in sin and never change. What is your opinion about a “homosexually active’ preacher?? or church??

      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001110306905 Marlane’a Bridgewater

        this was a wonderfully written article, thanks for sharing it with the world.

      • keith

        Morgan, You skirt the line and almost ‘admit’ that homosexuality is a sin. Almost……but not quite. The bottom line is that Satan is not sitting there pointing out homosexual sin to the LGBT community. Instead he is telling them that its OK to live 24/7 in sin. Not accusing them of anything for we know he delights in their degredation.
        The whole point of the Chik Fil A contraversy is simply childish, intollerant, uncompromising, homosexuals who cant stand the fact that a man stands by his religeous beliefs. After all, he was just answering a question that everyone knew his answer to. If you want to chastise a group of people why dont you start in the LGBT community to act like adults and quit their hypocritical tyrade about the Cathy family. You miss the second part of the scripture you quoted says “Go and sin no more”. In other words, I have your back but you better change.
        My question to you is whether you will wilt like corn in the midwest drought when ‘confronted’ by the LGBT community or will you stand your ground? Do you expect Christians to remain silent when something contrary to our beliefs are being crammed down our throats? What about the ASSAULT on our young people? Middle Schoolers who are introduced to garbage and vile pictures of homosexual acts and desicriptions of those acts??? What would you do if your child were shown this @#$$ at his/her school and all of a sudden they are now questioning what you have taught them??? If your answer to any of these is to remain silent then you need to get the heck out of ministry. You, and many more will soon discover that the LGBT community wont let you ride the fence anymore. You will either be for them or against them for they will make you decide. They are after our young people with the intention of corrupting their minds and souls. You should be very scared of what may await you when you meet your maker if you decide to compromise your faith for the misconception of “loving” them into heaven. I respect those who differ in opinion and arent a “pleaser” much more than those who waffle on issues that are contraversial. You will never have their respect if you try and compromise with their ideology.
        You are WRONG in the fact that “LOVE” has everything to do with showing them the TRUTH and standing up for what you believe when confronted. They started crap and YOU are suggesting that we remain silent, let the Cathy’s take it on the chin, and cower in the name of “love” BULLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
        Remember the song, This little light of mine???? Too many bushes these days and not enough light.
        What you saw was a nationwide display of what is to come. Chrisitans have been silent too long and preachers have been too worried about their paycheck instead of standing firm on their beliefs. It will be interesting to see where the chips fall when this heats up. Its time to quit pandering to the minority garbage.
        By the way I want my tax money back that is spent on all the perverted, sick, disgusting, hell sent porn that is printed in books and shown to innocent children with the intent of perverting them and their souls.

        • ………..

          Looks like our chief accuser, Mr. Carr, has made his triumphant return.

          • keith

            funny …………. nice name :)

        • tarl_hutch

          Keith, I understand your concern here and your desire to stay true to your beliefs, but am concerned by your idea that those in the lgbt community are the enemy. They are not the enemy, but children created by God who need Jesus as much as you or I. You don’t have to agree with them, but raking an adversarial approach is counter productive.

          You may be right that “they” will take a for us or against us stance, but isnt that also what you arr advocating here? A basic, if you don’t agree with my beliefs then you are a servant of hell? This is a false dichotomy. In the end we are all in the same boat.

          Should you be silent on your opinion? No, but remember Christ said sin no more, but he did so AFTER saving her life and demonsrating grace to her. We start from a position of grace and then speak words of change.

          Also, it is not a bad thing for people and children to question. Questioning actually leads to stronger healthier belief. It is our duty as parents to answer these questions thoughtfully and raise our children the best we know how. If you do not like what is being taught, there are other options for your child. The error is in leaving all education to the public system, ultimately we are responsible for the education of our children and for teaching them the right way. Personally, my faith has grown tremendously through questing amd seeking the right answers and figuring out why I believe them.

          By all means, stand up for your beliefs, but do not make the same errors as the non Christian community by falling into the same mindset. We are called to a higher standard and tbe argument of “they dont play fair” does not hold water. Be Christ to others so that they may see God and desire him, advocate for a better way, but don’t fall into the trap of accusation.

          • http://twitter.com/MAGuyton Morgan Guyton

            Tarl, I’m really grateful for the grace that you show in patiently engaging others. I don’t always have that grace and it’s a witness to me.

            • tarl_hutch

              Thank you, but trust me it would be impossible without the work of Jesus, because I am pretty highly opinionated and I do love to argue. A lot of you guys that have written on this sight inspire me as well as the work of Thomas Merton and Walter wink. We all need to get a bit firey every once and awhile.

          • keith

            Tarl, You are a gracious gentleman and I respect that so I will address the issues you have raised. First, I have never said that we should shake our fists and yell at homosexuals because I think they are on the wrong track. What frustrates me is the fact that most of these folks cant even type the phrase “homosexuality is a sin”. That is a shame and frankly a disgrace. What I am saying, which eludes those far smarter than I on here, is that when they PUSH the issue it is our responsibility to express our belief when confronted. If you cant do that then what the heck good are you as a witness? If my child never heard me say something was wrong and I never corrected them then how the heck do you expect them to ever change??????????? If I had been taught that God is love all my life and never got the ‘other’ side of the gospel then I wouldnt be saved now. I mean, why do it? If anything goes and all is good then whats the point??
            On the children questioning I beg to differ. Are you telling me that its ok to introduce them to sin?? To allow the devil to tell them that its ok?? Wow. Our children are our responibility and our duty is to protect them from harm and anything else that is harmful. If the bible tells adults in I Thess to “abstain from even the appearance of evil” then why in the world would you think its ok to poison childrens minds with such garbage?? I guess that is why “young” people have gone from a 16% favorable opinion of homosexuality to a 47% favorable but hey theres probably no correlation to the billions spent by these misguided groups to influence our children…Nahhhh Just like the devil is subtle so is the LGB T community with stated goals of stealing your childrens minds and converting them to their sin. You are nieve to think that by just showing love that these activist communities will convert and abstain……Oh contrair….In fact we even have GAY preachers on here stating that God is blessing their church?? So there is the result of your passive, apolgetic, approach to sin. It grows and the devil uses your passiveness to convince them its OK and that they can live in a 24/ lifestyle and be a preacher with a growing church. I think that says it all.
            It disappoints me to think that you would have no problem with this sick literature being introduced to your child. Sorry Tarl but that is very disturbing if you are a christian.

            • tarl_hutch

              This is going to sound glib, and I don’t mean to question your belief, but maybe I have more faith in Jesus to accomplish his goals than you are espousing here. I believe you have faith in him, but I doesn’t seem like you fully trust his persuasive, transformative power.

              I agree that you should speak your belief when asked and when it is helpful, but there is a right way to do it and a wrong way. My biggest issue is with feeling like you need to defend God, that you have to fight his battles to make sure no sin is ignored. How amazing is your zeal, I mean that honestly, I can see your Passion for God and his message, but I fear that sometimes that zeal can be misguided and focused on crusading instead of proclaiming the freedom from sin, the furious Grace of God, and the transformative power of the love of Christ.

              I am not for showering our children in sin, but like it or not they are imperfect and will find sin without any help from a textbook or newspaper. You can’t shelter them from sin, only teach them how and why we should avoid sin and resist the temptations of the world. Do you honestly believe that between a parent’s loving example and Jesus’s compelling grace that teachers and pundits could undue the good work a family could do? Even when people fall away, Jesus still works in them to bring them back, I have witnessed it and it has strengthened my faith. You can’t shield them from sin, but you can give them the tools to resist it and overcome it. Also, keep in mind that some things you may think are wrong could have a bit of truth, as long as the fruit of the spirit is present.

              Keep in mind, even with what sin homosexuals pocess, they are still people. While their actions may “sicken” you, they are still children of God, find Jesus in them and love them as the least of these. I don’t care if you believe homosexuality is the worst sin under the son, that is just more reason to fight to bring them to Jesus and show them the grace that was shown you.

              You may think I am a weak, passive, lovey dovey liberal ” christian”, but I can assure you there is nothing easy or mushy or weak about actively loving others, especially those that hate you. For some the focus on sin can guilt them into finding jesus, but more often it is the current of love that runs through his sacrifice that inspires people to fall to his feet and accept his grace. That is the true good news, that Jesus frees us from our sins/failures and gives us thr strength to change and fully love. That Jesus inspires others and beckons them to come near, that Jesus is the Jesus I want to be, that is the Jesus that is in me and I in him. I know you love Jesus and I know you want to shoe the world what amazing grace he offers, but maybe there is room for giving thought to your approach. This forum also does not allow me to really know you, but I don’t think you are a bigot or an idiot, I think you are a man after Gods own heart, but you and I are still imperfect, so we need to examinr our ways and focus not just on being “true”, but also full of love and grace. I hope this has been more encouragement than affront, peace.

              • Drew

                I can assure you there is nothing easy or mushy or weak about actively loving others, especially those that hate you”.

                Thanks for the reminder of how counter-cultural that message is.

              • keith

                Very well said Tarl, I understand your reasoning however we just disagree on the approach. I dont believe that people need to bring “defanged” rattlesnakes to my childs school to show them there is no harm in them. I dont need my child handling them and questioning the ‘danger’ in it. There is a very direct correlation to this illustration in the fact that they are not given the whole story and are lied to. Children are impressionable and at a young age they should be protected from this nonsense. Im glad you dont think Im a bigot or an idiot lol…….but if you did I would still converse with ya ;)

              • tarl_hutch

                Ha…what do you think about homeschooling or private school instead? That seems like a good option for people who are concerned with the content of public curricula. Thanks for continuing the conversation and gid bless.

              • keith

                Tarl, I have no problem with home schooling however I do t hink that we need to be “in” the world but not “of” the world. I think that the difference here is whether or not it is our responsiblity to protect our children from harmful information that is contrary to our beliefs. I say yes, however I understand your point about training them at home. This leads me to ask, “what good is there in exposing them to sin that is cloaked political correctness? I refer again to the statistics that in just 10 years or so that the ‘youth’ opinion of homosexuality has gone from a favorable percentage of 16% to 47%. There is a direct correlation to the efforts of these groups in our schools and this change. After all, it is a ‘stated goal’ in their literature and correspondence. I wonder how effective the apostles would have been if they never addressed the ‘sins’ of those they preached to?? I also wonder why ‘hell’ is hardly ever mentioned on here? Peace.

        • http://twitter.com/MAGuyton Morgan Guyton

          “Christians have been silent too long.” Really? Moral Majority? Christian Coalition? I agree with you in one sense. The Christians who know the mercy of God have been silent while the barrel-chested sons of hell have been very loud.

          I’m not scared of God, Keith. I approach his throne with confidence because of the blood of Jesus Christ. All of your macho chest-thumping sounds to me like the way that you’re trying to earn your salvation. Just accept His mercy and stop putting on an act.

          • keith

            Im barrel chested but my life fits my Gods teachings ;) Not perfect by any means but not ashamed of supporting what the bible teaches either.I would suggest that if you are a preacher and arent convicted about not being able to even tell a person that homosexuality is a sin then YOU might take a look at receiving his mercy ;)

        • Drew

          Keith,

          I’m disappointed in how often you, Joe, and Matt come to this website and type in caps and just yell at people and in your case, cuss. You might think you are being zealous, but in reality, you are lacking humility. Before Christ, you were the most vile thing in the universe, Keith, and the only reason that you are no longer the most vile thing in the universe is because of Christ, not a single thing you did. We need to remember this always, and Paul talked about it extensively, the need to maintain humility because we did nothing and are nothing apart from Christ, and if it were not for God, we would still be nothing and do nothing.

          • keith

            Drew, Im sorry you are disappointed however it is time to confront the hypocricy of many of our liberal churches and their liberal leaders. In any case the capitalization is to emphasize, not to yell as you say. Also, you and Morgan and the rest who agree with this line of thinking are avoiding the issue. This is an issue that the LGBT community created. It is an absolute lie if any of you say that espousing your beliefs, when asked, is hateful. Thats ludicrous. Another lie is that, by sticking to our beliefs and supporting others who believe in what the bible teaches, is hateful. You are dead wrong if that is your position. You totally miss the point that the homosexual community is and has been actively trying to promote their agenda. You miss the fact that they are after OUR children. You miss the fact that they are the ones who started this fight with the Cathy family. Tell me you arent that nieve. Tell me you can look into the face of a homosexual group and tell them you dont want that garbage in your childs learning material at school. Tell me you can, when asked, tell them you know that homosexuality is a sin just like you could look into any other persons eyes and tell them if they were sinning. You dont have to point a finger and yell…Hey, you fag or limp wrist or any other epithat. All you have to do is stand you ground when they push their agenda. Why do you dance around the issue? Why is it so hard to say that you believe that it is wrong? Mr. Cathy did it and he did it in a non threatening way however NO dissent on this issue is allowed by the homosexual agenda crowd. You have no answers except to show them love and you think that is all you need to do. One post on here espoused that very thing so why is it that it isnt working?? Chirstians dont go around and boycott Target, Google, etc…for the most part. Christians have been quiet…yes Morgan quiet on this issue UNLESS it is pushed in our face.
            I tell you what, I want an honest and straight answer from those who have kids and support this weak approach to answering theological challenges. “If a homosexual group shows up at your school and hands out vulgar, pornographic, disgusting images of homosexual pictures and instructions and tells them it is normal then what would you do???? What would be your response? Be honest…..If you child brought home a book on homosexuality would you be silent when your child cant even ‘pray’ on his/her own at school? Chistians being silent? I would say way too silent.
            Oh and for the one who said the accuser is back…..Im not the one you need to worry about and I maintain that some on here will answer for their refusal to support Gods word. Love is telling the truth…not patronizing and affriming wrong doing for any reason. Same goes for your kids…You dicipline because you love not because you hate and no Im not suggesting dicipline for adults but Im sure some rediculous person on here will make something of it.
            Lastly, We are instructed to “confront” each other when we see sin in our lives. We are to try and bring that person back into the fold….If God expects us to rebuke each other then why in the world would you think that he expects you to patronze sin in an unbeliever or supposedly in some “believers” on here who are living in continual sin. Totally illogical and frustrating when I see the church slipping into an ineffective, “nobody cast the first stone”, weak, apologetic group of appeasers. Of course the church would grow if there are no parameters, no guidelines, and no conviction…duhhh.
            Answer my question and lets see what kind of responses we get. ;)
            Oh yeah, Drew, the !@$#% is just for effect too…Not literal but I will refrain from it.

            • Drew

              In your response, you never once addressed my comment that
              you are acting with a lack of humility.
              You see Keith, before your salvation, you were a complete abomination to
              God deserving of immediate death and an eternity in hell. Jesus died for your sins though and the Holy
              Spirit came to you to regenerate your heart and give you the gift of
              salvation. You did absolutely nothing to
              deserve it and you still sin despite the gift but you are forgiven through
              Christ repeatedly throughout your life.
              When you internalize that Truth, Keith, you have no choice but to be humble,
              and show a certain amount of love and grace to others. If you hate your enemy, you are worse than
              the worst and might not even have salvation.
              If you love your enemy, you are like Christ.

              Now, I agree that love is not what liberals make it to be,
              that love takes different forms that and love is only one facet of a multi-faceted
              God. We need to hold to solid doctrine
              and not be ashamed of doctrine. I have
              many of the same beliefs that you do, including the belief that homosexuality
              is a sin, and I voted for the gay marriage ban in my state because I believe
              the words of Jesus when he affirms Genesis by saying that marriage is when one
              man and one woman unite. However, we don’t
              need to emphasize truth at the expense of love, or love at the expensive of
              truth… we need extra helpings of both.
              Again, if you hate your enemy or are angry at your brother, you are
              worse than the worst.

              Yes, we need to stand firm in our faith and what the Bible
              teaches. However, nowhere in the Bible
              does it say to convict unbelievers of their sin (with the exception of a few
              prophets revealing prophecy from God).
              Rather, we are to preach the Good News.
              We are only to confront other believers, in the context of community, about
              their sin, and only when we have removed the logs from our own eyes. Remember, the message of the cross is
              foolishness to those that are perishing.
              You preaching to a non-believe about their sins is not going to convict
              them of anything, because they don’t have the Convicter, the Holy Spirit, within
              them.

              The world is going to teach and expose your children many
              bad things, Keith. My child I sponsor in
              Africa has five siblings and a widowed mother in a third world country with no
              safety net that has been ravaged by AIDS (spread mostly heterosexually) and is
              prone to drought and starvation. If the
              only thing our children are exposed to Keith is a naughty picture, we should
              only consider ourselves so lucky – praise God!
              By the way, I have never seen homosexual groups hand out pornography,
              but I have seen conservative Religious groups hand out pictures of aborted,
              mangled fetuses to high schools and colleges.
              If it did happen to me though, I would teach my kids what the Bible
              says, and talk to the school and/or school board.

              In the end, I agree with you. I just ask you to be more humble, maybe more
              loving, and less focused on the secular world and political issues.

              • keith

                Point taken Drew, I agree with you mostly. I would like to point out that the frustration you are seeing on this site is toward people who should know better.I am not so ignorant to think that non believers are going to change if I chastise them about their sin. What Io do believe is that when confronted and asked we have an obligation for the price of salvation, to follow Christs teachings. I am fully aware that I was and still am as “filthy rags” in his sight. My best is not even a drop in the bucket. We differ on the opinion that we should only show “love” and ‘never’ follow through with the rest of the story. It is impertive that the progressive church realize that they are, by their “love” only approach, affirming homosexual preachers, churches, leaders. That is an oxymoron.
                I find it sad that you think that a few “pornographic” pictures and sinful theology are not a big deal. I think you are wrong. It is a very big deal. Here is the bottom line. If you try and push your agenda down my throat, or my families throat (which I am in charge of their spiritual teaching and guarding against evil) then I will rebuke you and stand my ground.
                I appreciate you stating that you think homosexuality is wrong. I find it amusing that Morgan or others wont yet they would have no trouble condemning drug abuse, gluttony, greed or any other sin that should be simple for them to address. In fact most on this site would rather focus on what they perceive to be “greed” just because they have an ‘opinion’ about a person who has been successful. Its a joke. No, Im not showing much humility as that isnt a command when addressing fellow christians who are teaching false doctrine or misleading lost people. We are told that if a believer wont listen to go and get more to confront them. Doesnt sound like God wanted us to have a choice about misteachings and living in sin by believers does it?
                In other words Im not trying to make anyone feel good on here nor patronize them. If they profess to be a child of God and can not renounce sin in general then it doesnt worry me one bit that I rub them the wrong way. I hope I do. Why? because our country is slipping into a reprobate state. If you are not guilty as charged then it wont offend you.
                I would love to see an article on here addressing sin in general and reveal that you can not live in continual sin and have a relationship with God.It will never happen because this is a “feel good” site. It is flower children and carousel music. It is the shiny package with nothing inside. Just my feelings. The irony is, and there are many on here who feel like I do, we are fighting our own people about things that there should be no debate about. Peace ;)

      • Nate

        “The primary public stance that Christians should be taking is to tell people in the world that God loves them and has provided a means for us to live in authentic, richly meaningful community together.” -Amazing… This pretty much sums up the extent of our duties as Christians. Christ, upon ascending into heaven, made clear that we were to “go into all of the world and share the good news.” That was his last request. Nothing to do with politics. Just to tell the world what he did for us. I believe that if we followed that more closely, most political “discussions” (arguments) wouldn’t even be necessary. Thanks for the great article!

      • Nate

        “The primary public stance that Christians should be taking is to tell people in the world that God loves them and has provided a means for us to live in authentic, richly meaningful community together.” -Amazing… This pretty much sums up the extent of our duties as Christians. Christ, upon ascending into heaven, made clear that we were to “go into all of the world and share the good news.” That was his last request. Nothing to do with politics. Just to tell the world what he did for us. I believe that if we followed that more closely, most political “discussions” (arguments) wouldn’t even be necessary. Thanks for the great article!

      • CLP

        So what everyone here says is we are not to stand up for Christian values because we don’t want to hurt someones feelings? What did God do to Sodom and Gomorrah and for what reason? I don’t believe in hate either. My daughter is gay and I don’t hate her but she also knows where I stand! She says you can’t pray away gay but I beg to differ!! My God is able!!

      • Anonymous

        I too have wrestled a lot with the distinction between prophecy and accusation. I think the key is to find ways to name the problems without demonizing people, which of course is easier said than done. Thank you for giving the insanely ugly “culture wars” some helpful perspective.

      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1404453225 Patrick R. Saunders

        Accepting and loving folks as they are.

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