Hating Religion, Loving Jesus: A Well-Meaning False Dichotomy

This week has seen a new viral sensation take over our computer screens. A spoken word artist who goes by the name Bball1989 released a video on YouTube that has, in less than a week, received more than six million hits called “Why I Hate Religion, But Love Jesus.” So regardless of what any of us personally thinks about what he’s saying, it’s incumbent on us to listen up.


For starters, there’s some really good stuff in his message. He deconstructs the idea that those within the church have it all together, or that one should already understand what it is they believe before crossing the threshold. On the contrary, he rightly asserts that the church should be more like a “hospital for brokenness.”

He also drives a necessary wedge between faith and politics, critiquing the tendency of the evangelical right to claim that the words “Christian” and “Republican” are synonymous. Though this is more prevalent that it is for liberal Christians, I’d argue it’s worth noting that fundamentalism, whatever its stripe, is damaging and has no place drawing partisan lines around faith.

This is a young man who has obviously worked through a lot of tough times to get to where he is. He admits to struggling in the past with sex addiction, and decries the church’s tendency to gloss over such problems, not dealing with the core issues that can tear a life or family apart. But he is where he starts to make some problematic points. And there are several.

Check out Christian’s Latest Piece: None is Saved While One Still Suffers

Yes, some churches do avoid talking about sex all together, or if they do, they take the Ed Young approach, telling married folks to have sex more and everything will be fine. As for the rest of you, well, pray for celibacy I guess.

He also claims that Jesus hated the church, and actually came to destroy religion, once and for all. I can certainly see where he would draw such conclusions, especially when Jesus quotes prophecies about the destruction of central Jewish temples, but I think he’s over-generalizing here. Though much of Jesus’ ministry was out in the streets and in homes, he hardly avoided the church. When there, he was prone to stirring things up, no doubt, but he was considered – and even called – a rabbi by many of his followers.

The video’s message also points out some necessary problems within organized religion, but as in other cases, he paints with a dangerously broad brush. Yes, some churches are doing more harm than good. Yes, some parts of religion are more about propping up doctrine or sustaining an institution than they are about living out the gospel in the world. But there also are millions of Christians who identify with one faith community or another (or even more than one) who are striving breathlessly to help invoke the kind of world Jesus claimed was possible.

To offer such plenary indictments is to become – to paraphrase Paul – the very thing that he claims to hate.

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I could go on in this regard, picking the poem apart, but you get the idea. This is a voice of post-evangelicalism, longing for a foothold with his faith beyond the trappings of a religious system that clearly he feels added to the problem rather than guiding him to liberation. I totally get that. Millions of us have been there.

But some of us choose to keep working from within the system to try and make it more like what we believe it can and should be. Yes, I resonate with the anti-institutional sentiment, as do millions of my peers. Few of us feel we owe the institutions much of anything. But in them some of us do still see some potential for them to be repurposed, reoriented so that they may once again serve the people, rather than the other way around.

It’s well and good that he’s making claims from the outside, but when he says he’s not here to judge, that’s simply disingenuous. Also, he begins to hedge even these bold claims by saying he still loves the Church, while hating religion. There are even other videos online of him “preaching” in church. So if we’re going to cast stones, let’s decide which side of the wall we’re aiming for.

But all of this doesn’t get at the heart of my biggest issue with his spoken word piece. What bothers me the most is that, despite stretching out toward a post-religious understanding of Christ, he then falls right back into the same old lexicon of substitutionary atonement language. You know the drill: Jesus died for your sins, the blood flowed down, he absorbed your transgressions, and so on.

So my questions is this: though he seems to be bent on tearing at the fabric of at least the evangelical Christian church, if not organized religion as a whole, why does his central message sound pretty much like every evangelical altar call I’ve ever heard?

And believe me, I’ve heard a lot of them.

Props to the guy for examining his faith, and for not taking the Church’s word for how to be of what to think. But if we’re going to ascribe to Buenaventura Durruti’s claim that the only kind of church that illuminates is a burning one, let’s not shove all the old dogma in our jackets for safe keeping as we rush out the back door.

—-
Christian Piatt is an author, editor, speaker, musician and spoken word artist. He co-founded Milagro Christian Church in Pueblo, Colorado with his wife, Rev. Amy Piatt, in 2004. He is the creator and editor of BANNED QUESTIONS ABOUT THE BIBLE and BANNED QUESTIONS ABOUT JESUS. Christian has a memoir on faith, family and parenting being published in early 2012 called PREGMANCY: A Dad, a Little Dude and a Due Date.Visit www.christianpiatt.com, or find him on Twitter or Facebook.

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About the Author

Christian Piatt

Christian PiattChristian Piatt is an author, editor, speaker, musician and spoken word artist. He co-founded Milagro Christian Church in Pueblo, Colorado with his wife, Rev. Amy Piatt, in 2004.He is the creator and editor of BANNED QUESTIONS ABOUT THE BIBLE and BANNED QUESTIONS ABOUT JESUS. Christian has a memoir on faith, family and parenting being published in early 2012 called PREGMANCY: A Dad, a Little Dude and a Due Date. Visit www.christianpiatt.com, or find him on Twitter or Facebook.View all posts by Christian Piatt →

  • http://twitter.com/hortencelafonte Sean McLaughlin

    What is a post-religious understanding of Christ?

  • Anonymous

    I’m not sure this kid is post-evangelical so much as neo-reformed in disguise. I think he’s misdiagnosed the problem. What makes American Christians act un-Christian is not our fixation on “religion” (doing rituals a certain way, performing sacraments, etc), but our idolatry of “doctrine.” When you think that having the right theological opinions are what saves you rather than Jesus Himself, then instead of being saved from self-justification, you’re even more tightly locked into self-justification. Here’s what I wrote about it: http://morganguyton.wordpress.com/2012/01/12/why-i-hate-doctrine-but-love-jesus-response-to-a-similarly-named-video/

    • Jacob Michael

      Good job Morgan!

    • http://twitter.com/hortencelafonte Sean McLaughlin

      Jesus answered them and said, “My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me.

      The high priest then asked Jesus about His disciples and His doctrine.

      And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers.

      “Did we not strictly command you not to teach in this name? And look, you have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this Man’s blood on us!”

      Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them.

      As I urged you when I went into Macedonia–remain in Ephesus that you may charge some that they teach no other doctrine,

      If you instruct the brethren in these things, you will be a good
      minister of Jesus Christ, nourished in the words of faith and of the
      good doctrine which you have carefully followed.

      Till I come, give attention to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.

      Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

      All Scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

      For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, [because] they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers;

      holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict.

      Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
      But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine
      of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the
      children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit
      sexual immorality.

      Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.

      • http://morganguyton.wordpress.com/ Morgan Guyton

        That’s cute. I’m aware that doctrine is taken from doctrina, the Latin word for teaching. Augustine’s De Doctrina Christiana is one of my favorite Christian theology books. It still doesn’t mean that your theological opinions are what saves you. People who believe that their theology is what saves them are putting trust in themselves instead of Jesus. That’s a way bigger problem than “religion.” That’s my only point.

        • benmanben

          “That’s cute” really doesn’t help the discussion.

        • Karlgraff

          Being “Right” is not what Christianity is about.

    • http://jesusjusticeandjargon.blogspot.com/ Schuyler Stallcup

      I agree that he seems like a neo-reformer in disguise  (especially after his Love Wins parody or whatever it was). The thing is, I hear guys like Driscoll all the time talk about how religion sucks and it’s all about Jesus. And yet, it is guys like Driscoll who are so in love with doctrine and seem to me so much like the religious elite. I don’t think that Jesus came to abolish religion, but I certainly don’t think he came with the intent of starting a new one. I guess it comes down to how you define “religion.” I might argue that there is a religious side to Christianity and a nonreligious side. The religious side is the distinctive theological beliefs and sacraments and rituals. The nonreligious side is the following Jesus and embodying the Kingdom aspect. And I though I may agree with the religious part, it doesn’t define who I am. My decision to follow Jesus is what defines who I am. Everyone on this earth has theological beliefs. Some people are closer to the truth than others, but no one has perfect theology. So that area really doesn’t separate people that much. But electing to follow Jesus Christ does. The problem is when Calvinism or Catholicism is a greater part of a Christians identity than being a follower of Jesus. When you define yourself by your doctrine that is when it becomes, as you said “idolatry.” 
      I just hate when Christians present Christianity as simply another religion. It puts being a follower of Jesus on the same level as Islam or Hinduism. I wish we could get it across that the specific theological beliefs are just a fraction of what it means to be a follower of Christ.

      • http://morganguyton.wordpress.com/ Morgan Guyton

        YES YES YES! Doctrine, religious practices, etc, are all a part of our walk, but the definitive question is: have you put your trust in Jesus Christ?

    • benmanben

      I think criticizing the use of any doctrine is a doctrine of its own, isn’t it?

      • http://jesusjusticeandjargon.blogspot.com/ Schuyler Stallcup

        Where did he criticize the use of any doctrine? I think he said that we can’t allow our doctrine to become an idol. 

        • benmanben

          OK. Well isn’t that still a doctrine, whether biblical or not?
          And in what situation does doctrine become an idol?

          • http://jesusjusticeandjargon.blogspot.com/ Schuyler Stallcup

            Is believing doctrine shouldn’t be an idol, a doctrine? I think that’s a stretch, but I guess you could see it that way, but I think Morgan is talking about theological doctrine. Doctrine becomes an idol when you define yourself by your theologic beliefs, as opposed to following Jesus; when your theological doctrine is at the center of your life, rather than Christ.

    • http://Themainlineevangelical.blogspot.com/ Joseph Perdue

      I’m with you Morgan. The Resurgance has said positive things about this which was enough of a red flag for me to investigate it.

  • Anonymous

    I’m not sure this kid is post-evangelical so much as neo-reformed in disguise. I think he’s misdiagnosed the problem. What makes American Christians act un-Christian is not our fixation on “religion” (doing rituals a certain way, performing sacraments, etc), but our idolatry of “doctrine.” When you think that having the right theological opinions are what saves you rather than Jesus Himself, then instead of being saved from self-justification, you’re even more tightly locked into self-justification. Here’s what I wrote about it: http://morganguyton.wordpress.com/2012/01/12/why-i-hate-doctrine-but-love-jesus-response-to-a-similarly-named-video/

  • Jacob Michael

    Great article! Thanks!!

  • http://love2justice.wordpress.com Joe D.

    Christian,

    you make some great points here. i’ve seen this video floating around but haven’t watched until now. thanks for unwrapping some of the oversimplifications. I think you missed one tho:

    “one is the work of God, the other is a man made invention”
    this is the dichotomy that strikes me the most. So was Jesus not a man? Is the Church not the work of God, the very body of Christ? I think this idea leaves us with a disembodied Jesus and a completely secularized Church (and overly-spiritualized INDIVIDUAL believers). I agree with you; there’s a lot more thinking to be done on the issues he raises.

    the quality on the video is pretty sweet too..

  • Anonymous

    The speaker does not deconstruct the church and his conflict is not with doctrine. The battle he’s waging, obviously resonating with millions of people (maybe not so much the editors of this blog) is against HYPOCRISY. There was a time when we could celebrate the Fridays in our lives because we knew Sunday was coming. We’re not so sure anymore, because we have watered down the pure Gospel message with our political ideologies — left and right. The conservative calls for moral holiness and the liberal calls for social justice and sadly, never the twain shall meet. I could go on picking this article apart, but perhaps that would give it more credit than it deserves. Sadly, rather than celebrate “Red Letter Christians” such as Tim Tebow or this young man, the voices represented on this blog have become nothing more than an extreme left voice, trying to merge a political message with a spiritual one… and that, my friends, will never work whether you’re with the Tea people or the Occupy people… they just don’t mix.  Put whatever labels you want on this video and the courageous young man who takes a stand for something good. Obviously, little is much when God is in it and this unknown undergrad and his You Tube video will THANKFULLY lead more souls to Christ than this blog proper, or at the very least this blog post, ever will. 

    • http://morganguyton.wordpress.com/ Morgan Guyton

      Bashing? How did you read all of that and come out of it with a black and white pro- or anti- position? I happen to be very much in support of what the kid was saying in the video and I also think this article is a good thoughtful reflection about it. I think he rubbed some people the wrong way because he oversimplifies things, but it’s always appropriate to take on hypocrisy, just like it’s appropriate to talk critically about videos that come on the Internet and say what you agree with and what you disagree with. Critical thinking does not boil down to “Yes, I support it” or “No, I oppose it.” Unfortunately in our era, people only think in terms of pro- or anti-. Try to transcend that!

      • Anonymous

        I am so happy that you think this article is a good thoughtful reflection of the video, even “fair and balanced” (my words, not yours). You challenge me to transcend my limited (again my word) pro/anti understanding of things. You keep indicating that the video and those who have problems with it are concerned about “doctrine.” I have no concern on that and neither do I think that the video focuses on that aspect of religion either, except peripherally at best. The theme of the video is clear and if you can’t see it, then there is little anyone can do to try to persuade you. I’m glad you say you like it and you seem like a very well educated and versed individual. I am sorry if you felt that my previous post was bashing as that was not the intent. Yet, I stand behind it.  Where you view my perceptions as black or white, I view this article and your ad nauseam defense of it as the real issue requiring transcendence (as you say).  Perhaps by protesting so much about doctrine, it is you with the issue on that topic. Of course the comparison of Jesus with religion is not “fresh” — the discourse goes as far back as the New Testament itself. What is “fresh” about it is the face on it, the anointing on it, the fact that it uses technology, the fact that it is well produced, that fact that is very much a perspective of many young adults in 21st Century America.  What those who oppose it’s validity or who try to make it merely a meme that will come and go are really afraid of is the reflection they see of themselves against the message that it is holding up. Shouldn’t all young people reject the absolutes that our post modern age has abandoned? Why is he different? Why is this message getting attention?  Here “we” (the enlightened Christians who have learned to transcend truth) are accepting everything and everybody, letting people discover their own truths in a sea of philosophies and coming together around social causes rather than the centrality of Christ’s Cross. That’s the real issue at hand.  Not doctrine. Not morality. But HYPOCRISY.  And it seems in our post modern emergent church is tolerant of just about every lifestyle and cause… every political persuasion and every nuance of (what orthodox Christianity would consider) heresy.  Everything goes, everything’s okay, everything is acceptable… EXCEPT a post modern young man in the 21st Century with the audacity to tell the world that religion won’t save you… only JESUS holds the keys. Pray and meditate with your Hindu neighbors… call on Ra… worship at the altars of compromise… and the enemy is not false religion or even a devil (he doesn’t exist)… the enemy is the  people who call themselves Christians who dare to insist that the Bible is true… that sin is sin and that salvation is found in no one else. If that’s too old fashioned, outdated or yesterday’s limited view… those people we can’t accept.  Now, that’s the hypocrisy of the transcendent… 

        • http://morganguyton.wordpress.com/ Morgan Guyton

          What’s with all this talk about postmodernity? Is that where you think I’m coming from? You’ve got stereotypes about this website that you’re projecting onto me. It’s not a homogeneous space. I’m coming from a different place than other people who write and visit here just as you are. I put my trust in the blood of Jesus alone, not in the list of things that I believe about Jesus which is what produces the self-justification and hypocrisy that you’re talking about. That’s why I generally resonate positively with the video, but after your last outburst, I’m not sure I understand why you do.

          You’re still only thinking in terms of pro- and anti- and you’ve decided that I’m on the “other side” from you and I thus don’t believe in the devil and want to meditate with Hindus and all this other crap simply because I didn’t express uncritical agreement with everything you said. Like I said, it’s more complicated than that. Jesus died for our sins at least partly so that you and I could have a conversation without us needing to condemn the other one to hell in order to feel right.

          • Anonymous

            I do apologize for lumping you in with “everyone” else here and I would never condemn you to hell no matter how apostate you may be. (That is a joke.) Yes, we should be able to have a conversation but it just seems to me that I can tell what’s going to be the take of an RLC article before I read it. Perhaps that’s the nature of blogs these days (political leanings) but when a “fresh voice” comes along, we should support it, even if we disagree with it. I know you feel the article does that, but titling it “False  Dichotomy” meant for me at least it would be all down hill from there. Nonetheless, my problem is with the editorial slant of the blog and I projected that onto you. For that I am sorry… clearly you have your own opinions. If I continue reading RLC perhaps I shall learn more of the nuances of your approach. Either way, God bless and be well. Signing off. Semper fi. 

          • http://morganguyton.wordpress.com/ Morgan Guyton

            No worries bro.

          • Jhthiebaud

             It is the Holy spirit that illuminates truth and quickens us to understanding.  I am praying for you.  God Bless.

      • Zach

        It is a little disrespectful that you refer to this young man as a kid!!! He is a young adult, and therefore you should refer to him as an adult.  Kid is very condescending and when people in the church discredit young adults and youth it is no wonder that 40% of college freshmen that grew up regularly attending church do not go back to the church.  My generation is fed-up with this idea that  you must meet this requirements for you to be accepted in the church.  Guess what?!? Jesus hung out at the gates of the city, he was with the people that were the lowest class in his society.  One day the religious right will wake up and figure out that love wins period.  

  • http://www.fivedills.com Greg Dill

    Aww, come on RLC. You are starting to sound like the guys over at The Gospel Coalition. Whenever something young, progressive, and fresh comes in, they attack it as unbiblical, heretical, or whatever. I hope you guys aren’t falling into the same pharisaic behavior they are.

    Peace.

    • Anonymous

      So true bro, great point.

    • http://morganguyton.wordpress.com/ Morgan Guyton

      I just don’t see Christian’s piece as being an attack. It’s a critical reflection. Incidentally, I’m not sure the dichotomy of hating religion and loving Jesus is anything “fresh.” It’s been a standard neo-reformed meme for a long time. Google it and you’ll see a bunch of Mark Driscoll sermons with similar titles.

      • Drew

        “It’s a critical reflection.”

        In light of Piatt jumping on the Tebow criticism bandwagon a few months back, it would seem that Piatt likes to point out individuals for the purposes of criticism and not for the purpose of lifting up.  He’s developing a bit of a track record in this regard.

        The theme of this video may not be “fresh,” but the style is, which is effective in reaching young people… not much unlike a contemporary worship service.

    • benmanben

      Well, Greg, I think people are trying to explain why they don’t like the video,
      and your comment doesn’t seem to explain much of anything.
      In fact, it seems to me that you only like it because it is “progressive”, “young”, and “fresh”, which seems like silly reason to like any theological ideas.
      Explain if you think it is right, and explain why,
      otherwise please explain the value of your comment,
      and what is pharisaic about the article above.

      Please don’t just say it is too “traditional”.
      I don’t recall Jesus ever criticizing tradition.
      He may have criticized what was done with or around it, 
      but I don’t think he ever criticized it.
      Perhaps some people in the 60′s just started calling anybody of authority that they didn’t like a Pharisee, but that just seems silly to me.

      • http://jesusjusticeandjargon.blogspot.com/ Schuyler Stallcup

        Hold on there. You criticized the validity and thoroughness of Greg’s critique, when in your own critique you admitted that you didn’t even read the whole article? That seems a tad hypocritical, brother. 

    • Doug

      And you’re one of the ‘enlightened ones’ right ? Oh puhleez….
      Sounds like you’re as pharisaic as they are but you just dont realize it having been swayed by the modernist fallacy.

      • Doug

        Then again rhetorical question, all the ‘progressives’ on RLC think they are ‘the enlightened ones’ and anyone who disagrees with them is hit with the battering phrase ‘pharisee! ‘ It’s beginning to sound like the Christian version of ‘racist!’, just shout it at your opponent and sit back smugly thinking you’re morally aloof.
        I’ve no problem with alternative views but IMHO so many ‘progressives’ have an attitude of self righteousness that would be at home with the pharisees themselves.

        • http://www.fivedills.com Greg Dill

          Actually, I see more of the smug, self-righteous, attitudes emanating from the fundamentalist, right-wing, quasi-Reformed thinkers more than anyone else. You know the guys.. Driscoll, Piper, MacArthur, Carson, Mohler… The Gospel Coalition, the new Religious Right, and those that follow them. These are the ones who have a monopoly on Evangelical Christianity. You know the guys, the ones that claim to know all the truth and if anyone disagrees with them they are labeled a “heretic”.

          Does the phrase “Farewell Rob Bell” mean anything to you?

          Come on. Get real, dude. We know who the Pharisees REALLY are.

          • Doug

            Again…such hubris and Christian humility …and you and your lobby are the ‘enlightened ones’ who know the truth and everyone who disagress with you and your friends are ‘pharisees’. Puhleez. Where would ‘progressives’ be without the bogeyman ( and pharisees ) of the ‘religious right’ ? Give me a break. Ever heard of the phrase about the log in your own eye ??? These guys are all ‘Pharisees’ and you’ve got the true perspective – that your worldview ? Very modest.

          • http://www.fivedills.com Greg Dill

            Humility? You mean like this:

            “And you’re one of the ‘enlightened ones’ right ? Oh puhleez….
            Sounds like you’re as pharisaic as they are but you just dont realize it having been swayed by the modernist fallacy.”

            Come on. Get off your high horse. And, where would progressives be without the bogeyman? Far more progressed than we are now. It’s no wonder people are turning away from this old timey religion. Because, that’s what mainstream Christianity has become. Still clinging to medieval period theology for a post-modern word. It’s not working.

            Time to move on.

          • Doug

            ‘Get off your high horse’ ? Excuse me but it’s not me thats accusing lots of Christians of being Pharisees, acting like Im one of the ‘enlightened ones’ with the answers to it all. And this ‘old timey religion’ as you call it has fought slavery, elevated the status of women, the status of workers, advanced education, gave birth to great scientific advancement. Yet in spite of this you sit in your ivory tower sneering at ‘Pharisees’. As for medieval period theology what is your solution ? A watered down gospel more appealing to liberals with a thorough endorsement of homosexuality and edited out references to sin? Our job is not to be popular to the world but to get people ready for a meeting with their  maker. If the ‘world’ doesnt like the message it is not our job to candy floss it to Hollywoods or anyone else’s liking. Little did I know that you ‘progressives’ were going to rescue the Church out the doldrums from ‘old timey religion’, mainstream pharisees, and medieval thinking. Where would the Church of Christ be without them?

          • http://www.fivedills.com Greg Dill

            Dude, what history textbooks have you been reading? Sure, it were a few Christians who abolished slavery in Great Britain and arguably America. But, you totally forgot something. It was modern day Christianity that brought slaves from Africa. It was also on the platform of Christianity in which Manifest Destiny was promulgated. Go back further in your medieval theology and you will see it were modern Christians who initiated the Crusades and the Inquisition. This not to mention modern fundies who often beat the drums of war to go fight in places like Iraq and Afghanistan all in the name of patriotism and nationalism. You’ve been sold a bill of goods. It’s not too late to repent.

            Modern Christianity is almost dead. Either become relevant to the post-modern culture in which you live or the culture will kill your religion for you.

      • http://www.fivedills.com Greg Dill

        That’s “post-modern” to you, young man. Not modern.

        • Doug

          No it’s not buddy – appeal to modernity: (argumentum ad novitatem) asserting that something is true or good because it is new(er). from
          http://www.dianahsieh.com/pf/fallacies.html

          • http://www.fivedills.com Greg Dill

            Dude. Modern is so… yesterday. We’ve been in the post-modern era for over a decade. Read, “A New Kind of Christian” by Brian McLaren where he breaks it down for you in laymen terms.

  • Anonymous

    The Church, is the body of christ here on earth. The religious ceremony on Sunday morning in a big fancy building, is not the church, it contains members of the church, but it is just a religious club. He’s not against the church, he’s against religion.

  • InthestepsofChrist

    I think this article sounds just a bit defensive.  What seems to be the core of the poem in question (and it is a poem – not a dissertation or treatise) is that religion does not bring us closer to God or each other but can and most often does lead to self-righteousness and judgment and pretending we are better than we are to each other (and maybe even trying it with God – which of course never works).  That does not mean that by putting our faith in God (and not just in my following of certain rules – or even having certain “right” beliefs – though I do not think the poem is against either orthodoxy or orthopraxy) and living as authentically with God and each other in community as possible (even if we call that community a church) cannot happen and should not happen or be our goal.  But if we think that we are more special to God or loved by him because we go to this church or wear this label or “look like a Christian” (pretending that all is well with us and that we do not struggle with even sometimes “shameful” sins) then it is no surprise when we hear something like this video poem that we get “pricked” and either listen and evaluate where we are honestly or we get defensive and take the offensive and pick it apart so we can ignore the parts that “step on our toes” thus invalidating them to make us feel OK how and where we are.  Having worked on the “inside” in church ministry I know from experince that building a big(ger) church and then all the effort to “maintain the beast” can really take one away from drawing closer to God if one lets it. I think the more you are bothered by someone “poking” and letting the air out of “religion” the more it shows you have invested in religion yourself.

    And in the video I don’t hear him ever say that Jesus hates the church (which did not really exist until after He had ascended).  But while He loved and help the broken who admitted their sin and need for help, as the video points out Jesus saved his harshest criticism for the “religious leaders” who instead of helping people find and connect with God actually did just the opposite (in part on purpose so they could stay “special” and in part maybe without realizing due to their hypocrisy).

    If this video makes you think – and even after honest evaluation (including self-evaluation) you dissagree with it I still think it’s creator would say it has done its job!

    • http://morganguyton.wordpress.com/ Morgan Guyton

      “If this video makes you think – and even after honest evaluation
      (including self-evaluation) you dissagree with it I still think it’s
      creator would say it has done its job!” I agree, which is why discussions like this are valuable.

  • Anonymous

    also, he posted a comment on his facebook wall:

    Jefferson BethkeIf you are using my video to bash “the church” be careful. I was in no way intending to do that. My heart came from trying to highlight and expose legalism and hypocrisy. The Church is Jesus’ bride so be careful how you speak of His wife. If a normal dude has right to get pissed when you bash His wife, it makes me tremble to think how great the weight is when we do it to Jesus’ wife. The church is His vehicle to reach a lost word. A hospital for sinners. Saying you love Jesus but hate the Church, is like a fiancé saying he loves his future bride, but hates her kids. We are all under grace. Look to Him.

  • benmanben

    Haha. I stopped reading when he wrote about politics not being a part of the religion… As if Tony doesn’t insist the Democratic Party is the party of Jesus, but what gets criticized? The Republicans. Of course. Though I never suggested you had to be Republican. I’ve been fighting the idea that you had to be any party, it seems to me THIS SITE is the place where I have seen the most of one political party pushing its ideas on the other as if it was Christian Doctrine.
    And yet you mention the Republicans.
    Don’t you know what site this is?
    Don’t you know of the things written here?
    And yet the tendancy of evangelicals to equate “Christian” with “Republican”.
    Well, why don’t you explain this tendency?
    Point it out every time it comes up here in the comments.

    Because all I find is people of this site posting the idea that I MUST be democrat to be a Christian.

    • http://jesusjusticeandjargon.blogspot.com/ Schuyler Stallcup

      Well, I’m a subscriber to RLC and in no way do I think the Democratic party is the party of Christ. I really don’t know why Tony is a registered Democrat. I hope I get the chance to ask him about it someday. That being said, Tony has never suggested that the Democratic party is the party of Christ, nor has he said that true Christians must be Democrats. That is a personally decision of his and one I disagree with, but he has never made those claims. If I remember correctly, there was a three part series on here a month ago over the Church and homosexuality, with each article expressing a different view point. People who write for and read RLC do not agree on everything, but I believe we are all (or at least most of us) united in our love for Jesus and our desire to share His love with the world. None of us are perfect. But our love for Christ is sincere. 

      So now you can say that you know someone who is “of this site” that doesn’t think Jesus and Democrat are synonymous. 

      Love and Peace. 

    • http://morganguyton.wordpress.com/ Morgan Guyton

      So did you like the video? It says that Jesus’ goal isn’t to get people to vote Republican? Did you get turned off by that? Just curious.

      • benmanben

        No. I got turned of by the idea that it is evangelicals “tendency” to equate them. I think that is a stereotype that doesn’t fit a lot of evangelicals.

        I also feel like THIS site identifies Christianity too much with voting.

  • ChrisBrown

    Straight from Jefferson Bethke’s mouth. Taken from his facebook:
    “If you are using my video to bash “the church” be careful. I was in no way intending to do that. My heart came from trying to highlight and expose legalism and hypocrisy. The Church is Jesus’ bride so be careful how you speak of His wife. If a normal dude has right to get pissed when you bash His wife, it makes me tremble to think how great the weight is when we do it to Jesus’ wife. The church is His vehicle to reach a lost word. A hospital for sinners. Saying you love Jesus but hate the Church, is like a fiancé saying he loves his future bride, but hates her kids. We are all under grace. Look to Him.”

    • Daniel

      boom!

  • ChrisBrown

    And thanks for the reminder that “you people” still have no idea on how to reach the next generation. This wasn’t a theological dissertation, it was a vehicle to let the unloved know that they’re loved and to rescue the lost. I’ve seen more “sinners” link this video on facebook than i could have ever imagined. He’s reaching people who are lost with his art. actually, you’re right, it’s best we nit-pick and disect it here on RLC. (you meaning everyone who feels the need to disect this. Seriously, go snowboarding or something)

    • http://morganguyton.wordpress.com/ Morgan Guyton

      It’s not attacking something to critically respond to it. If part of Bethke’s purpose is to trigger discussion, why are you trying to stifle it? What’s wrong with people talking about it and saying I agree with this part and I disagree with this other part? It doesn’t really do anything if people just share it on their facebook pages and nobody reacts to it. The difficulty with the video is it’s vague enough that different people take it to be an affirmation of what they already think and ignore the parts that don’t already line up with their ideologies.

      I got the video forwarded to me by a kid who said, “See, I don’t have to go to church to be a Christian.” Mostly I agree with what the guy was saying. I also think it’s good that people are talking about. My Bible study Monday is going to watch the video and discuss it. I’m stoked.

      • Drew

        What Chris is saying (and the reason why he has 14 likes) is that we should be quick to understand and slow to be critical.  Christian acknowledges this is resonating with people but seemingly he cares more about opining rather than understanding “why” it resonates.

  • Anonymous

    you miss the point- the church is the body- according to God. According to man it is a building, or an institution. The church is the Bride, not the gathering place for people who would like to someday be  good enough, or do enough to be the bride. Man’s church demands conformity to it’s localized standards and behaviors. God’s church was lovingly chosen and made beautiful through the love of God, the blood of Christ and the power of the Spirit. This young man is just posing questions and speaking his heart- which more and more share…

  • BJMinton

    The talent and courage of this spoken word artist is to be commended.  My heart aches for those who feel they need to ‘correct’ or question the theology of his work.  Their comments sort of feel like a child taking crayons to a work of art.

  • Nick

    Unfortunately it was evident that whilst you’re criticism of this reminded me of a theology lecturer’s report on a student’s thesis, it was also evident that you actually didn’t listen to it correctly. I would recommend listening to it again so as to revise your work.
    Although this presentation is quite possibly far from perfect in more ways than one, I don’t believe it deserves the elongated, albeit negative critique that you offered. Your report appears to present as something reaking of evangelistically irrelivant christian acadamia and/or a waste of time. Would it not be wiser to applaud a young man’s attempts to communicate God’s love in an artistic, relevant manner.   

  • jennw

    Christian, and particularly supporters/haters,

    I think its amazing how Christians can spend so much time debating about theology, doctrine, politics etc. I rarely have time for blog posts but I happened to come across this posted in Twitter so I thought I’d check it out. Took time to read through the comments and was a little sad. Reminds me of all of those “bible studies” where people would try to make their points about scriptures…not sure if anyone was ever changed much by those talks…? No offense, all seem like kind, thoughtful, really intelligent people on here (for the most part ;). But I just wonder if this big discussion did anyone much good? And maybe its just me that doesnt grow from this kind of debate. If so, I can live with that.
    In my opinion on the video, one thing I think may have touched people, and it certainly touched me, is the power of disclosure. Rev. 12:11 says “They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb & the word of their testimony”. Now all of you can focus on ripping apart my use of that scripture, context, the original Greek word etc but regardless I believe there is immense value in our testimony. Yet no one mentioned anything that the guy posted on YouTube he struggled with PORN (except Christian verry briefly without much value attached to this). However, how many times, seriously, EXACTLY HOW MANY TIMES have you seen a Christian publicly admit his (or her) struggles with pornography in front of possibly hundreds (now millions) of people? That, in addition to him being HIMSELF, sharing HIS FEELINGS and revealing all of this with his new? interesting? weird? possibly loved or hated? poetry/art/spoken word.  Its just that authentic thing that we all talk ABOUT but rarely still do.  It is water to the parched land we’ve been living in and that, I believe, is what we are going to be seeing more and more of. That is what “the world” and “Christians” and whoever is in between are sooo desperate for from ‘the church”. So I pray that instead of defending positions, or discussing theology one. more. time. that we would consider just the value of being vulnerable in front of many as we try to figure out how to follow Jesus and truly live…

  • http://Themainlineevangelical.blogspot.com/ Joseph Perdue

    I agree that the most disturbing thing about this is that the theology he expresses isnt great, especially his view on the atonement. I’m also pretty concerned about his “Jesus doesn’t expect us to do anything” attitude as it strikes me as neo-reformed. The sad part is he seems to be a cooler version of the thing he is criticizing, which is my criticism of the “seeker sensitive” movement, but thats a topic for another time.

  • http://morganguyton.wordpress.com/ Morgan Guyton

    “So I pray that instead of defending positions, or discussing theology
    one. more. time. that we would consider just the value of being
    vulnerable in front of many as we try to figure out how to follow Jesus
    and truly live.” Vulnerability is the key to Christian community. Jesus died so that we could stop being know-it-all jerks and be open about our weaknesses.

    • Jhthiebaud

      Well said.  Well said.

  • Veralee Veralee

    In certain post-evangelical circles right now, the word “religion” is being used with a very specific, limited sense. In some cases, it is referred to as “the spirit of religion.” This usage of the word refers not to people who identify as Christian, nor necessarily to institutions, organizations, or their buildings. “Religion” as they are using it means the practice of being pharisaical, embracing outer appearances, rule keeping, and  valuing other forms of neo-law over and above heart change and relationship with God. That is precisely the sense in which this poet has used the word. Most people (though not all) who use the word “religion” in this negative way are by no means advocating abandoning the church. This is why he says “now let me clarify, I love the church” (it helps to read the lyrics carefully instead of just listening) There is really no dichotomy as described in this article. Just a lack of understanding of how the word religion is being used in this corner of Christendom. 

  • Staud821

    What you said, makes no sense. My favorite part that you wrote was that he still preaches about going to church, yet he hates religion. You don’t have to like religion to go to church. If you haven’t noticed his video says he still loves jesus. So if he wants to pray to him, he can.

    Just a quick note here, his video was cool, but I don’t believe in religion or god. I’m agnostic and don’t believe in any of this, but this topic is fun to debate.

    You also said he was a sex addict. I don’t remember anywhere in his video that he said that. Yea he said he liked porn and all, but that doesn’t mean he was a sex addict. Millions of people watch it, doesn’t mean they are monsters. He was just expressing his opinion, much like all of us now. But you will never really understand his message because you are not him.

  • http://twitter.com/jennwatts Jennifer Watts, MA

    Oh and sorry to all for my spam comment over and over. I had some issues signing in w. Twitter, then w. Safari. Ooops :)

  • ExCathedra

    I don’t get it. I’ve been hearing this exact message from non-denominational evangelicals for a decade now. “Religion is bad, relationship is good.” It’s usually a not-so-subtle dig at liturgical Protestants and Catholics, and I don’t see this guy being any different. Why is he such a big deal?

    • Drew

      Why is he such a big deal if he is repeating a common theme?

      1.  The theme still holds true, as evidenced by people leaving mainline Protestant denominations for Evangelical churches
      2.  The way he expresses the theme is fresh and resonates with a young demographic.

  • http://mikesnow.org/ Michael Snow

    Your title sums up the essense. The video is an honest attmept to address key problems in our midst but some seem to think the videos theme is new or fresh. His title flows from the ‘Christianity is not a religion, it’s a reletionship’ mantra that has been around for decades, now.

    It is the old problem of forgetting about the ‘holy conjunction’–”and.”

    What we lost in the process was “truth” as two references defining religion were thrown out: the Bible and the dictionary. Any one who has read faithful Christian teaching over the past two millenia knows that religion was talked about in terms of whether it was true or false.

    C. S. Lewis’ rule for reading is a needed antidote for the spirit of our times

    “…after
    reading a new book, never allow yourself another new one till you
    have read an old one…keep the clean sea breeze of the centuries
    blowing through our minds…”

  • http://mikesnow.org/ Michael Snow

    I watched this vid here, when I went to the youtube page, his first sentece below the vdeo clarifies his point [which is obscured by some hyperbole in the video]: “A poem I wrote to highlight the difference between Jesus and false religion. 

  • Doug

    Good points Christian,
    At its most basic religion is simply the public manifestation and ritual of private belief.
    This guys effectively making out that such public manifestations and rituals of Christianity are inherently ( or mostly) to be hated. I believe he overgeneralises too much. Are all our Sunday worship rituals and manifestations wrong and worthy of hateful contempt? This guy’s hasty overgenarisatioons and hugely inductive leaps show the lack of internal coherence to his argument.

    Id be interested to know how many Chrisitans here hate the public manifestations of their fath at their Church?

  • Veralee Veralee

    “I hate public manifestations of spirituality, and I think we should burn down all the churches and dissolve all related organizations.” Wow. I must have missed that line the first three times I watched the video and read the lyrics.

  • Daniel

    too bad this video seems to bother the writer of this article so much…guess he or she should ask themself why…why? why am i bothered by the thought of denomination or “segragation” of christians being wrong? this article just helps prove the point of the video…hooray for an underground movement by the holy spirit!

  • Anonymous

    It
    seems to me that often the thing that divides us in the Church, ironically, is
    something we all have in common.  It seems
    to be part of human nature to always create false dichotomies.  To constantly put in opposition different
    aspects of the full mystery of the Church. 
    We swing back and forth between it’s all about the institutional Church
    vs. it has nothing to do with institution. 
    It is all about dogma vs. it has nothing to do with dogma.  It is faith vs. reason.  It is all God’s Grace vs. our faith filled
    works.  It’s all about proclaiming the
    message vs. taking concrete action to change the world.   I think we all flee to the extremes because the
    mystery in the middle is gray and hard and uncomfortable.  The Church is about all these things.  It is “and/both” not “either/or”.  It seem to me Christ came to reveal the nature
    of God and reveal a way of life that puts us in right relation to God and each
    other.   He came to fulfill the law, not
    abolish it.  He came to reveal that is
    the spirit of the law that matters more than the letter of the law.  They still both matter.  I think an articulated understanding of the
    divine with an accompanying description of the resulting right way to live is
    called religion.  I think the means
    Christ left us to understand this and help us follow “the way” is called His
    Church.  These are both good things.  The abuse of a good does not diminish the
    good of a good.  Pax.

  • Anonymous

    It
    seems to me that often the thing that divides us in the Church, ironically, is
    something we all have in common.  It seems
    to be part of human nature to always create false dichotomies.  To constantly put in opposition different
    aspects of the full mystery of the Church. 
    We swing back and forth between it’s all about the institutional Church
    vs. it has nothing to do with institution. 
    It is all about dogma vs. it has nothing to do with dogma.  It is faith vs. reason.  It is all God’s Grace vs. our faith filled
    works.  It’s all about proclaiming the
    message vs. taking concrete action to change the world.   I think we all flee to the extremes because the
    mystery in the middle is gray and hard and uncomfortable.  The Church is about all these things.  It is “and/both” not “either/or”.  It seem to me Christ came to reveal the nature
    of God and reveal a way of life that puts us in right relation to God and each
    other.   He came to fulfill the law, not
    abolish it.  He came to reveal that is
    the spirit of the law that matters more than the letter of the law.  They still both matter.  I think an articulated understanding of the
    divine with an accompanying description of the resulting right way to live is
    called religion.  I think the means
    Christ left us to understand this and help us follow “the way” is called His
    Church.  These are both good things.  The abuse of a good does not diminish the
    good of a good.  Pax.

  • Bigalreimer

    I liked the video and could relate to it directly.He is trying to distinguish from a false church to a real one.He has some serious errors tho.”religion says do,Jesus says done”.Not what Jesus says.There is a difference between believing of Christ and believing in Him.To believe in Him is to believe what He said.Jesus  said that not all who come to me and call me lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven,but he who does he will of God.Also parable of the wise and foolish builders,where people who merely believe but do not follow are doomed,the wise are those who hear his words and put them into action.If I dont repent,am I saved?But isnt repentance a work? Faith and works go hand in hand like light and shadow.One is the result of the other.Too much to say here but there are many heresies to cause people to be unfaithful.God said to Adam and Eve if you eat from this tree you will surely die.The devil said you will surely not die.God allowed free will,and required that man freely choose to live by Gods instruction,In telling people you need to do nothing,you say they need not be faithful.There is no faith without faithful desire.

  • Bigalreimer

    I liked the video and could relate to it directly.He is trying to distinguish from a false church to a real one.He has some serious errors tho.”religion says do,Jesus says done”.Not what Jesus says.There is a difference between believing of Christ and believing in Him.To believe in Him is to believe what He said.Jesus  said that not all who come to me and call me lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven,but he who does he will of God.Also parable of the wise and foolish builders,where people who merely believe but do not follow are doomed,the wise are those who hear his words and put them into action.If I dont repent,am I saved?But isnt repentance a work? Faith and works go hand in hand like light and shadow.One is the result of the other.Too much to say here but there are many heresies to cause people to be unfaithful.God said to Adam and Eve if you eat from this tree you will surely die.The devil said you will surely not die.God allowed free will,and required that man freely choose to live by Gods instruction,In telling people you need to do nothing,you say they need not be faithful.There is no faith without faithful desire.

  • http://twitter.com/sipaxto Si Pax To

    There’s an update from him and you can even see his response to one of his critics (http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2012/01/13/does-jesus-hate-religion-kinda-sorta-not-really/) –> the follow up post is the link at the update note. =)

  • http://twitter.com/sipaxto Si Pax To

    There’s an update from him and you can even see his response to one of his critics (http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2012/01/13/does-jesus-hate-religion-kinda-sorta-not-really/) –> the follow up post is the link at the update note. =)

  • travers

    Does adding an image change the picture beside my name, or add a picture into my comment?

  • Jhthiebaud

      Self righteousness runs rampant in the western culture of Christianity where doing is what matters and not BEING.  I grew up in a secular home by very educated parents.  I spent YEARS in and out of church’s seeking love, grace and forgiveness…  I was broken in every sense of the word with ‘inappropriate behavior/attire’ to belong.  Very, very painful.  Much rejection and ridicule.  It is only the Truth of JESUS and WHO HE IS that kept me from walking away from God.  I found Jesus on a Delta flight where a REAL Pastor reached out and shared..prayed with me.  It was his nonjudgmental spirit and LOVE that broke the hopelessness in me.  I had finally met a real Christian!   His people are His body…it is US who represent Him to a lost and broken world.  I know first hand most unbelievers ARE NOT stepping into church’s seeking God…because frankly He isn’t there.   The ‘church’ is the people of God..not a building or ‘group’.  No one is perfect of course, but bottom line it is the fruit of the Holy Spirit that proves Jesus in His people.  This video is right on.  Be nice to see ‘christians’ actually be honest about their sin/struggle for a change, too.  It is the word of one’s testimony that qualifies the speaker.  Not a seminary degree.  (thank God!)   And this video is straight from the Master Himself.  :)

  • Ggilmore1

    Wow, so you don’t believe in the substitutionary atonement? “You know the drill, Jesus died for your sins?”  If you don’t believe that why are you even writing a Christian blog??  Dude you not even a Christian. Tony drop the “red letter Christian” name to this blog please.

  • http://www.facebook.com/stan.cardwell Stan Cardwell

    ” . . . why does his central message sound pretty much like every evangelical altar call I’ve ever heard?”
    really?  I was with you until you started your own rant.  maybe it sound like an alter call because it sounds like Jesus and Paul and John and Peter.  It’s called the Gospel.  Good news.  While we were yet sinners, Christ dies for us . . .

  • Drew

    “So my question is this: though he seems to be bent on tearing at the
    fabric of at least the evangelical Christian church, if not organized
    religion as a whole, why does his central message sound pretty much
    like every evangelical altar call I’ve ever heard?

    Answer:  The central message will always be the same.

  • Shawn Beaty

    Stupid review!!!! So to accept what the Bible and 2000 years of Christians believing in the attonement means he missed the point. What about all of the RED LETTERS IN THE NEW TESTAMENT? So the video is thre minutes long, I would like to see Christian Platt communicate the gospel effectively in three minutes. All I have seen him do is waste my time in his ridiculous trying to be a cyinic of anything popular hipster wa

  • Drew

    Christian admits that this video is resonating, but instead of trying to
    understand why it is resonating, he is more focused on editorializing. 
    In doing so, Christian misses the point entirely.  I suggest that Mr.
    Piatt put his need to editorialize aside for a few moments and try to
    understand what this kid is saying and try to understand why it is
    resonating.

    The reason why it is resonating is because millions of young people have had the same experience.  Jesus was the most radical figure in history, and the Church should be the most radical community in history, but that is hardly the case.  Jesus becomes sanitized and so does the Church, and the result is a less-than-authentic version of Christianity and a focus on self-righteous “religion.”

    When a young person gets saved and goes “to Church,” it can be a shock.  Instead of hearing the Gospel, you can go to some churches and not hear the Gospel for several months at a time (thank you, ten-part series on Pauline Epistles).  Instead of seeing a modest building that would convey humility and good stewardship of financial resources, many new Evangelical churches are  multi-million dollar facilities with state-of-the-art technologies built on secluded, multi-acre properties with ponds and water fountains.  Instead of seeing all walks of humanity at Church, we often see a country club gathering – strict informal dress codes, only brand-new SUV’s in the parking lot.  We look at their outreach, and we wonder why they only support expensive mission trips to exotic locales when there is an inner-city less than ten miles away that needs all the help it can get.

    Funny side-not about church dress codes.  My dad had been a member of his church for 20 years and had started several ministries there yet almost got “relieved” from Usher duty one service.  It was hot outside and he wore sandals to church.  The member pulled him aside and said something about honoring God in regards to the dress code at Church and that he would try to find another usher.  My dad looked him right in the eyes and asked if the member would let Jesus in the Church because Jesus also wore sandals.  He was allowed to be an usher but still told not to wear sandals again.

    This is why the video resonates, Mr. Piatt.  Maybe “your” church is different.  Most churches are not – and that is the problem.  Yes, the Church is a critical aspect of Christianity and the Church will never be perfect because ultimately it is made up of broken people.  If Mr. Bethke is looking for the perfect Church, he will never find it.  However, Mr. Bethke is explict in saying that this video is not about the “Church” but about the practices (self-righteous religion) of most Churches.  It’s a fair and important point to make.

  • Andrew

    I don’t believe Jesus came to found another religion but to revolutionise the existing one, Judaism, this call now falls to us to revolutionise the religious nonsense which waters down the words of Jesus and paints a picture of a Jesus who therefore doesn’t work to the spectator in the street. Contrary to the video I can’t ever accept that Jesus hung on the cross and thought of me, how grandiose is that? Simply buys in to the me generation teaching. Jesus was on the cross because he was radical and loved the kingdom of God more than his own life.That’s what he calls us too. I do believe he choose the cross to bring reconciliation between God and man, however his desire was for all mankind to know the reality of relationship with God and in that true relationship with one another.

  • Bruce

    I don’t doubt you’ve heard many altar calls, but with your disparaging comments about the shed blood for the atonement, I question whether you answered any of them.  I know that just sounds like a molotov cocktail lobbed over the wall by a fundamentalist wacko, but seriously, your re-invention of the Christian message is very dangerous.
    To your point on the well of souls – Man’s self awareness in his introspection, as well as circumspection, separate him from the rest of the animal kingdom, and the herd, and give God all the more justification in requiring an individual account for each life granted in his image.  Heb. 9:27
    This site is increasingly becoming a targeted wall, attracting doctrinal graffiti.  The artists are no doubt aware their work has made its mark – and can be smugly satisfied that what they’ve done  looks similar to the other esoteric symbolism that has vandalized the wall of Christian doctrine. We were warned sound doctrine would not be endured in the last days.  Do your ears itch? II Tim. 4:3

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