Well said Nathaniel. Thanks for your tempered and even-toned comment. Civility is a modern spiritual gift

I think the big issue is whether marriage is a right or just another perk of being an American? Gay Americans feel it is their right to marry someone they love, is it our right to deprive them of their own pursuit of happiness?

Of course you can argue it is not a right and democratically decided that gay marriage should remain illegal. I live in NC and was a bit shocked to see only 34% of registered voters making such a decision for the whole state. It was especially suspect that it was done on a primary ballot in a year with only primarily republican candidates up for selection. But you can argue how it is the responsibility of the voters to get out and decide thus only harming themselves if they don’t vote. True, but why should this even be an issue decided on a ballot?

I thank you for adding your voice to the conversation and admitting that you would be fine, at least politically with whatever decision the voters decide. How should the church engage with the lgbt community? How can we show them we aren’t bigoted and hateful? Also, is it the Christian way, the grace filled way of Christ, to legislate our beliefs or are we to be am example of another way?

Also, it is a bit presumptuous to assume all Christians believe exactly the same on this issue. There ate a growing number of gay affirming churches in America and a wide range of opinions in the body of Christ. You can argue that there ate four to sox verses that speak about homosexuality, but that is a very minuscule amount that some feel leaves room for doubt.
Thoughts?

Ally,

You have hit the nail on the head, it is easy for people to be steadfast in their beliefs regardless of the outcomes when we forget that real people are involved. When it is abstract people are capable of anything, but sometimes all it takes to change someone’s opinion is to coke face to face with another human being.

Thank you for raising this point and sharing personally. Just know there are still Christians working to break down barriers and go from us vs them to we.

It is a long road, but we can get there if we are willing to talk with each other and try to remember that we are all part of the same loving, dysfunctional family.

 Thank you, Tarl_hutch.

 Matt-

Given your apparent need to “defeat” liberals, i doubt you’ll be open enough to hear what i have to say but i do want to address your comment.

You may find what the Bible says about homosexuality to be “cut and dry”, but not all people have that interpretation. Six verses do not outweigh a message of love and redemption. Further, cultural context matters and what is clear is that we do not (and cannot) fully know what the biblical writers meant– it’s possible these verses refer only to religious prostitution and/or adult male-to-child-male relations, which would be abuse.

Tell me, do you believe homosexual orientation is sin, or is the sin “just” homosexual behavior? May i find a woman attractive as you might find a woman attractive?  May i hold hands with  woman? Kiss a woman? May i be in a celibate relationship with a woman? Or, as a lesbian, is my entire existence a moral depravity?  Where is the line? That you said homosexuals are a moral depravity is a judgment.

 Y’know what’s awesome about your argument? It’s an automatic win, ’cause what can i say that demonstrates i respect the Bible as you do? i can’t say anything, because my conclusions are different from yours and that apparently means i want an excuse to do whatever i want. See, awesome argument.

 Nekouken, you make a good point– that we, as Christians, hijacked Judaism and their Scriptures for our own purposes has done a great disservice not only to our Jewish brothers and sisters, but to ourselves in our understanding of the Christian faith.

I’m not saying that you lack respect, but rather, lack knowledge.  There are lots of false teachings swirling around the Church – always has been the case and always will be the case.

Of course we can have different conclusions on the same topic. 
However, there are some things we can just not have reasonable, different conclusions about, and I strongly believe that this is one of them.

Just because you disagree does not mean you are correct, it just means that you still lack knowledge.  Driscoll actually has a great sermon on April 6, 2008 called “Revelation: God Speaks.”  I don’t go to his Church, and I belong to a different denomination, but I think he did a great job on this.  The Bible is not unclear; we often understand and do not want to believe, so we try to find loopholes.

It is funny you should bring up Drischoll, the same guy says ‘I couldn’t worship a guy I can beat up’, and is well known for making inflamatory statements. I would argue that if one is so worried about false teachers, one needs to seriously pay attention to what Drischoll says.

I say this not to accuse Drischoll of being a false teacher, but to illustrate the point that it is counter productive to run around calling each other Satan and tearing each other down. Now do I agree with much of what drischoll says, no, but I also don’t truly believe he is a false teacher. I believe he is human. Just like all of us, and we can’t claim to have the final word on anything because we are not God.

Thankfully we do have God in is and thus can work out and interpret his words and hear his call. I think we should do as the bible says and judge by the fruit we are producing. In relation to the fruits of the spirit, what seems to produce the most fruit, loving ones neighbor and loving without agenda or fighting for what we think of as truth and not compromising no matter the consequences?

I say all this to cause us to think, even if we don’t have our theologies perfectly formulated or we have some doubts, does not render us incapable of following God, living the love of Christ, and redeeming the cosmos.

Thoughts?

What’s cool about that verse is the Truth it speaks- Jesus and Jesus alone is the Saviour of humanity. Not our theology, not our doctrine, not even our faith- Jesus.

On a side not, I truly do not understand your need to denigrate those who are theologically or politically (at this point, I’m not sure which it is but it may be both) more liberal than you…care to shed light on that attitude?

 Hmm, i never said that i want you to say i’m right– if you’ll notice, what i did say what that we’ll have to agree to disagree.

i am still curious as to why you feel the need to denigrate those who do not fall under the same political or theological rubric as you.