Open? Yes! Affirming? No.

I’ve been running into a lot of comments from friends across the blogosphere lately, revolving around the issue of how the church should respond to homosexuality today.  I write this response with trepidation, because I have a hunch it’ll upset many of my more “liberal” friends with about the same level of fervor many of my other writings upset my “conservative” brethren.  However, I feel we have got to cut to the chase on a couple important points that I do not see showing up in these dialogs.  The most important is this:

If we insist that the church should be affirming of gay unions, we better come clean and admit that we’ve decided that Biblical Christianity has nothing left to say regarding sexuality in any form.


Why do I say this?  Well, first of all, because the arguments I hear in favor of “affirming” gay unions in the church are based, not on scripture, not on the teachings of Jesus, but on the generic concept of compassion.  LGTBQ (Lesbian, Gay, Transgender, Bisexual, and Questioning or Queer–depends on who’s translating) individuals are often marginalized, subjected to discrimination, even victims of violence in our society–this is unarguably true.  Jesus came to minister to the marginalized and love them (also true).  Therefore, the argument goes, the church should stop teaching LGBTQ behavior is immoral, welcome these individuals into full fellowship, and even bless their lifestyles and unions in the church.  Problem is, that “therefore” involves a quantum leap that is incompatible with New Testament discipleship.

First of all, let me be clear:  violence against any person–including violence motivated or excused by that person’s sexuality, gender identity, or our perception of the same–is always, in all contexts, wrong, and we in the church should be first in line to oppose it.  We see this truth throughout the life of Jesus and the teachings of the apostles.  When Christians are even slightly on the side of defending anti-gay violence and persecution, we are to that extent guilty of active blasphemy.  As with any other form of violence and oppression, we ought to be known for our active opposition to anti-LGBTQ violence.

Nevertheless, while scriptural guidance on sexuality may not be as clear or comprehensive as a Bible-lawyer might wish, the evidence we do have is pretty one-sided, and it weighs heavily in the direction that sexual activity outside the bounds of a one-woman, one-man marriage is proscribed for the Christian.  I’ve gone into this in some detail before so I won’t repeat it all here.  In short, however, marriage (or perhaps I should say “holy matrimony” to distinguish from the civil definition which is frankly none of our affair) is the union in which “a man leaves his father and mother and [is] joined to his wife, and the two become one flesh.”  That sanctified union is not available to a man joining another man, nor a woman to a woman, and that union is the sole basis in which sexual relations can be a holy and God-blessed thing.  Sexual relations in any other context–whether straight or gay is beside the point–are adultery or fornication, both forbidden to the believer.  Wes Hill stated it well (I recommend you read his entire message here):

…although many people find themselves, through no fault of their own, to have sexual desires for members of their own sex, this is not something to be affirmed and celebrated but is, rather, a sign that we are broken, in need of redemption and re-creation. Gay people are not uniquely broken—that’s a position we share with every other human who has ever lived, or will live—but we are, nonetheless, broken. And following Jesus means turning our backs on a life of sexual sin, just as it does for every other Christian.

There are many who suggest that the New Testament writers never considered same-sex unions when they wrote about marital fidelity, because they were in a conservative culture that would not have even thought about it.  Any reference to the sexuality of Greek and Roman culture seems to me more than sufficient to put this idea to rest.  Jesus, Paul, and the rest were perfectly familiar with same-sex relationships in the broader culture.  As I wrote in the post I linked above, I do not think many of the texts people often interpret to condemn homosexuality–e.g. 1 Cor. 6:9–are as clear as the fundamentalist might wish (for an interesting read on these passages, though I disagree with his ultimate conclusion, see this article by Dale B. Martin; his error is to fail to engage the broader questions of marriage and adultery in the N.T.).  It is not that somehow “gay adultery” is somehow “worse” or “more perverted” than the straight kind.  It’s just still adultery.

But adultery is not OK and should not be “affirmed” by the church.

So am I being “unloving” here, as the Dale Martin article above (and many of my Facebook friends) would suggest?  Well, let’s think about that.  The presumption seems to be that the “loving” thing to do, is to encourage everyone to fulfill their sexual desire with whomever they desire.  After all, if (as seems to be the going theory) sexual orientation is an innate characteristic and not a lifestyle choice, everyone should have the right to follow their innate urge to seek pleasure in a mutually-fulfilling physical relationship.

Of course, implicit in the notion of “orientation” is that our human impulses are God-given and therefore right.  I don’t see how anyone can take the New Testament seriously and still buy this contention.  Scripture teaches us that human impulses tend toward depravity in essentially every area of life, from economics to violence to sex.  Romans 1:18-32 is a pretty good compendium of these “orientations,” only a few of them sexual, but sexuality definitely figures among them.  Paul seems to be suggesting that God essentially said “you want to screw up my creation, then here, feel what screwed up is really like!”  Our “orientations,” both sexual and otherwise, are corrupted.  They need to be redeemed, not fulfilled and honored.

The drive to “affirm” gay unions seems to me to be an attempt to lift out the one issue of same-sex attraction and somehow separate it from all the other ways in which fallen humanity expresses its sexuality.  I can see neither a Biblical nor a logical rationale in which to affirm the gay union without also choosing to condone polygamy/polyandry, pedophilia, multiple divorces & remarriages (“serial monogamy,” it’s sometimes called), and on and on, just so long as both (all?) parties consent.  In such a setting, matrimony as a construct becomes somewhat irrelevant outside of whatever secular benefits it may convey.  We really come down to the same situation C.S. Lewis described so well in his essay “We have No ‘Right to Happiness’,” part of the collection God in the Dock (see the full text of the essay here).   While Lewis was primarily arguing that people’s perceived happiness was no excuse for abandoning the marital commitment, he also stated that at the root was the notion that somehow

… sex [is] to be treated as no other impulse in our nature has ever been treated by civilized people. All the others, we admit, have to be bridled. Absolute obedience to your instinct for self-preservation is what we call cowardice; to your acquisitive impulse, avarice. Even sleep must be resisted if you’re a sentry. But every unkindness and breach of faith seems to be condoned provided that the object aimed at is “four bare legs in a bed.”

Which brings me back to the claim I made at the beginning of this post.  If we are going to continue teaching in our churches (and I hope we are), that God cares about about sexual purity, monogamy, the sanctity of the union of matrimony, and how husbands and wives ought to behave toward each other, upon what basis are we going to make those claims?  If the New Testament standard is to be discarded or reinterpreted away with regard to same-sex unions, how then can anyone claim it speaks with any clarity or authority about any other aspect of sexuality?  Either all of it matters, or else be honest and admit that none of it is relevant any longer.  I see no logical or hermaneutical basis for any in-between.

What do I mean in practice?  That’s where the title of this post comes in.  The church’s doors and hearts should be open to anybody who’s interested in seeking or learning about Jesus.  No one is required to accept his lordship in order to hear about him, or to experience the love of his people–and this is as true for people whose moral shortcomings are in the sexual area, as any other.  As Wes Hill asked in another important post you should read, “Will the Church shelter and nourish and humanize those who are deeply lonely and struggling desperately to remain faithful?”  I sincerely hope so.

But we must never confuse love with affirmation.  The church has no business blessing gay unions, any more than it ought to be blessing divorces  or multiple marriages.  And it most certainly ought not to be placing into leadership anyone who is engaged in *any* form of adultery.

I do not claim that any of this is easy.  Celibacy is a tough choice for the gay and the straight.  I find the various claims of people having been “cured” of same-sex attraction to be as questionable as most gay-rights activists do.  Frankly, this isn’t unique to sex.  An awful lot of addicts I’ve known have struggled to some degree with their addictions for many years after going clean.  While the call of Christ is to live a new life, the painful reality for many is that their old life keeps rearing its ugly head for a really long time…sometimes a lifetime.  We remain in a fallen world, even as we seek to live in the Kingdom of Christ.  Redemption is most assuredly a process that will not be completed for any of us this side of the grave.  But never–not for one moment–dare we suggest that the old life was all right after all.

[Editor's Note: A Follow-Up Post discussing these issues and arguments from a different angle will appear later today. This article does not present the views of Red Letter Christians but rather serves as a conversation starter to one side of the argument. The dialog will continue later today.]

—-
Dan Martin has worked in health, international development, and information technology, and now lives in Atlanta with his wife and three children.  Raised to look back to the source for his faith, Dan has been gripped by the contrast between the life Jesus described, and the practice of the church.  Dan blogs on faith and discipleship at http://nailtothedoor.com.

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  • Trudyj65

    I have no problem with what you’re saying if you apply the exact same standard to remarriage after divorce. If you accept the remarried couple into full fellowship and deny that to the gay couple who are married or in a civil union, then you’re practicing the same hypocrisy that disturbs me in my church and many others.

    • Drew

      That is true to an extent, although repentance does play a part in this.

  • Mtfrisbie

    I am concerned with what appears to be a judgement on belivers who find themselves unwillingly in multiple divorces…are we suggesting that a woman who has left her husband because of severe alcoholic abuse and remarries only to have her new husband leave her for another woman is wrong in God’s eyes if she marries a third time?

    I ask this because there are many devoted Christians who find themselves the VICTIM of divorce. In our society if a man or woman wants a divorce, they just simply do and to heck with the consequences…I fail to see how a victim for divorce is no longer a fit Christian…I had a theology professor put it this way “God hates divorce, he does not hate the divorcee”

    I have seen churches fail to utilize strong Christian men and women because they were not biblically fit because of divorce – what is biblically fit…when we look at the great leaders of the bible and examine their many faults how could we describe any of them as bibically fit…just sayin

  • http://www.travismamone.net/ Travis Mamone

    Yeah, uh, I’m gonna have to disagree with you on this one. 

    For starters, as far as the Bible goes, I believe that those infamous clobber passages have been taken out of context.  Here’s one out of many web pages about the subject:  http://www.gaychristian.net/justins_view.php

    Second, and I mean this in the most sensitive way, the type of theology you present here basically says that gays are second-class citizens in the Kingdom of God.  It makes it sound like God is saying, “Okay, all you people over there with a natural-born inclination for same-sex attraction?  Sorry, you don’t get all of the gifts that my straight children get.”

    Now I’m not painting you as a bad guy or anything like that.  I held the same position you did years ago.  I’m just saying that this kind of theology isn’t helping.

    • Zach R

      I don’t think he presented a theology that homosexuals are second-class citizens. The theology he presented was that EVERYONE is broken. That brokenness is manifested in everyone in all different kinds of ways. He makes it clear that homosexuals are on an equal plane with everyone else, but that that plane is far below the plane of holiness or rightness.

      Also, the theology we have should not be determined by how helpful it is. It should be determined by how faithful we are to the word of God. And a theology that does not affirm homosexuality as a valid, biblical, righteous thing is much more true to the word of God that one that does.

      • Tim C.

        If gay people can’t have sex, and everyone else can, then they are second class citizens in the Kingdom of God.   Seems simple to me. 

        • Zach R

          What you are saying is that anyone who can’t do what they want is second-class in the kingdom of God.. Wake up and smell the roses cause I’m pretty sure the one thing that God is not about is affirming everyone’s sinful desires.

        • Keith Carr61

          Nobody said they couldnt have sex brother. I didnt see that in any of his article. As a matter of fact he said  sex  was only condoned by God in the marital relationship thus adultry, fornication etc are all sins just exactly like homosexual acts. Maybe not so simple for you ;)

          • Christine Spencer

            We aren’t living in a time where we have to blindly accept that a list of sins are in fact sins.  We have the ability and knowledge to discern the truth if we try.

            Adultery causes great emotional harm to the person who has been cheated on.

            Fornication…or sex for no purpose but the joy of sex inevitably leads to breakups and broken hearts.  These are also harm.

            Mutually committed IE:  Married homosexual couples are bonded and committed to the relationship and may or may not be sin…but it really is hard to show.

          • Doug

            “We aren’t living in a time where we have to blindly accept that a list of sins are in fact sins.  We have the ability and knowledge to discern the truth if we try.”

            Given the horrendous spread of AIDS, a continent of orphans in Africa, the genocidal proportions of abortion do you really believe human beings have the ability and knowledge to discern truth if we try ?

            I reckon based on epidemiological experience the human race couldnt discern such truth via our own ‘wisdom’.

            I can see know why God proscribed certain behaviours.

            As for married homosexual couples are bonded this is true but certainly not the bigger picture. Monogomy in homosexual relationships is virtually non-existant as several studies have show. Of course there are those that are monogomous BUT they are extremely rare.

            I reckon we should stick to God’s word rather than human wisdom.

        • Doug

          “If gay people can’t have sex, and everyone else can, then they are second class citizens in the Kingdom of God.   Seems simple to me.”

          Sorry Tim what seems simple is your mistaken logic.

          By your own logic then -

          “If pedophiles can’t have sex, and everyone else can, then they are second class citizens in the Kingdom of God.   Seems simple to me.”

          or

          “If people into bestiality can’t have sex, and everyone else can, then they are second class citizens in the Kingdom of God.   Seems simple to me.”

          or

          “If people into incest can’t have sex, and everyone else can, then they are second class citizens in the Kingdom of God.   Seems simple to me.”

          or

          “If eunuchs ( congenital or otherwise)  can’t have sex, and everyone else can, then they are second class citizens in the Kingdom of God.   Seems simple to me.”

          • Christine Spencer

            Pedophiles cause harm to children.
            Animals can’t give consent and it violates the animal.

            Incest is a violation of a family bond and most certainly causes harm….

            and Eunuchs who chose to be celibate are well within their rights to do so.  That was THEIR choice.

    • Keith Carr61

      Again, another liberal who has “arrived” in their intellectual interpretation of the scripture. Its not helping?????  What snot helping is so-called christians who wont stand against sin and the products of sin.
      Second Class Citizens? Wow Ive heard this before and I laughed the first time also. Nothing was said about berrating gays, lesbians etc… If you have a beef with scripture and what the Bible says about Gays and Homosexuality then you have a problem with God. And for Heavens sake please tell me what paragraph you are referring to that made you so upset?

  • Zach R

    Great article! It provides much-needed emphasis on the reality that as sinners, all of us are screwed up and that ONE of the ways that brokenness is manifested is through sexual desires that are clearly out of line with a biblical worldview. I think the distinction between being open to presenting the gospel and fellow-shipping with LGBTs but not affirming that their lifestyle is in any way biblical or righteous is an important one. So often, people on both sides of the coin make the two inseparable. Conservatives often say (or seem to say) that any association by the church with homosexuals is wrong, while liberals often say (or seem to say) that in order for the church to be open it also has to affirm.

  • Carl Gregg

    This article is dangerous, wrong-headed, and homophobic. For an alternative view, see my post on “Why Not Choose Love? Picking and Choosing Scripture as a Twenty-first Century Christian” (A Progressive Christian Lectionary Commentary for Oct 23, 2011): http://www.patheos.com/blogs/carlgregg/2011/10/%E2%80%9Cwhy-not-choose-love-picking-and-choosing-scripture-as-a-twenty-first-century-christian%E2%80%9D-a-progressive-christian-lectionary-commentary-for-oct-23-2011/.

    • Doug

      Sorry Carl but your support for what is in every instance, in diverse cultures and timescales scripturally condemned is dangerous and wrongheaded. We need to love the homosexual but hate the sin.

  • Anonymous

    So am I being “unloving” here, as the Dale Martin article above (and
    many of my Facebook friends) would suggest?  Well, let’s think about
    that.  The presumption seems to be that the “loving” thing to do, is to
    encourage everyone to fulfill their sexual desire with whomever they
    desire.  After all, if (as seems to be the going theory) sexual
    orientation is an innate characteristic and not a lifestyle choice,
    everyone should have the right to follow their innate urge to seek
    pleasure in a mutually-fulfilling physical relationship.

    If you’re interested in a serious engagement on this subject you undermine that effort by setting up such absurd dichotomies. Do you really think that the options are either “1man + 1woman in holy matrimony” vs. “do whatever the hell you want”? It demonstrates either a total lack of engagement with serious sexual ethics or a willful misrepresentation of your opponent’s position.

    Read Marie Fortune. Read Margaret Farley. Far from sexual anarchy these ethicists argue for a MORE serious engagement with the complexities of human sexual relationships not less. Indeed the major problem with the standard conservative deontological approach is that it tells us way too little.

    Your hyperbolic claim that anyone who affirms some LGBTQ relationships has given up on the Bible having anything to say about sexuality is transparently false. You mention Dale B. Martin. Also see Jennifer Wright Knust. There’s plenty being said on this very subject.

    My affirmation of LGBTQ relationships isn’t abstract or based on any “generic” principles. It is concrete and based on the specific Biblical principal of judging people by their fruits – I affirm specific relationships that I have witnessed conduce to greater holiness. I affirm relationships of love and mutual respect that produce fruits of righteousness. You want to decide in advance whether a relationship is holy based on its formal characteristics without paying any attention to its consequences. I say the only relationships which God blesses are the ones that increase the measure of love in the world.

    • Keith Carr61

      Here we go again with the liberal, Ive found the answer, BS. He SAID that the Bible only affirms and addresses marriage between a MAN and WOMAN. It doesnt matter how much “LOVE” you think two Homosexuals can show each other. You think that openly defying scriptural teachings is a positive influence on others???? Boy I bet you are Gay or  I bet you were a conservative at one time who has fallen into the trap of homosexuality and now lashes out at conservative Biblical teachings. Eithere way Im not interested in kissing your obviously arrogant behind so consider this as ‘tough’ love and calling it like I see it. Feel free to let you liberal wrath reign down on us conservatives…. God has my back brother.

  • DD

    “a man leaves his father and mother and [is] joined to his wife, and the two become one flesh.”The problem with this argument is that God does not just create man or woman; it turns out that, even on a purely physical basis, it is more of a sliding scale – with hermaphrodites residing in the middle. Once you add in the increased variance of the pseudorandom biochemical firings in the brain that create the mental/emotional aspect, the blurring increases exponentially. Ideally, we would all be able to transcend our physical world limitations and become pure reflections of God’s love, with out need for any carnal desire.  But we are born into sin, and as such, most are bound by our physical world limitations – compounded by societal reinforcement that focuses on our worldliness. (We all have the capability to be freed of this worldliness and become pure reflections of Godliness, but we do not necessarily have the ability to achieve that freedom).Most cannot escape the carnal longing for mental, physical and emotional companionship in this worldly realm – we cannot fully overcome our sinful nature.  So if two individuals, each trying their best to be perfect reflections of God’s love, come to the realization that they can help each other be better reflections by becoming one flesh under God, and consciously choose to devote themselves to God and to each other in that effort…than that would seem to be a Godly marriage – regardless of what form the random physical bodies those Godly souls happened to occupy.If it is adultery, whether gay or straight; would it not also be Godly love united in marriage, whether gay or straight.

    • Drew

      Nothing you say is rooted in scripture.

  • Gareth Higgins

    As I am listed as one of the contributors to this blog, privileged to have been mentored by Tony Campolo and others listed here too, and a supporter of what Red Letter Christians at its best is seeking to do: to promote a re-engagement with the teachings of Jesus, I welcome the opportunity to dialogue about contentious theological issues. I do, however, want to put on record my disagreement with what Dan Martin has written in this post. While much of it is a reasoned theological argument, which I would rebut with another reasoned theological argument, some of the post is deeply offensive and dehumanizing to LGBTQ people, and, I would suggest, anyone seeking to embrace and promote respect for the diversity present in the human race. I hope that the publication of this post on the RLC blog leads to dialogue, and not further dehumanization, of either the subjects of the post, or it’s author.

    • Anonymous

      Gareth,

      What specifically is dehumanizing to LGBTQ people in this post?

    • Keith Carr61

      So just because Dan stands by biblical principle and is quoting scripture to make a point he is a ‘hater’? Once again another misguided, liberal, follow-the-leader, philosophical, brain who thinks that they have got to rewrite scripture to keep from hurting someones feelings. Word to the wise Gareth…Use your intelligence to figure out why you cant accept the scripture for what it says. Quit trying to make it say something else. Again I will say that the evidence that God says points to a “False Prophet” is that the world will applaud them and encourage their message. You need to ask yourself why the organized groups promoting ‘SIN’ are urging you on in your false teaching. Nothing is offensive in this article Gareth unless you are suffering from the separation from God due to this very issue. If so then I will pray that He delivers you from this “choice” You, and the 3 others who ‘liked’ your post are still searching for something that has already been decided but somehow you think you are so smart that you can translate scripture to  fit your individual needs.

    • Doug

      Another false dichotomy – “approve of homosexuality or you are – a bigot – a hater , homophobe – or whatever other manipulatist bashing term can be invoked to deter opposition to homosexuality.

      No doubt 40 years from now the pedophiles will be claiming they are being dehumanized on RLC and someone will claim we dont respect their diversity either.

      In every 6 or so mentions of homosexuality in the Bible it is condemned now some think we can slip it under the discernment radar, crown it with respectability to a backdrop of the Beatles guitar strumming item ‘all you need is love’.

      Nowhere in the Bible do we find any approval of homosexuality, quite the contrary.

      Isnt it dehumanizing to describe those Christians who have principled opposition to homosexual sex and marriage as ‘bigoted’ ? Isnt it being judgemental on them and not respecting THEIR diversity of opinion. Funny how diversity respect seems to be a one way street.

  • Peter Garcia

    “If the New Testament standard is to be discarded or reinterpreted away with regard to same-sex unions, how then can anyone claim it speaks with any clarity or authority about any other aspect of sexuality?  Either all of it matters, or else be honest and admit that none of it is relevant any longer.  I see no logical or hermeneutical basis for any in-between.”
    This dichotomy is an oversimplification and fails to wrestle with the larger scope of the biblical text and culture. What about the Old Testament standard? “Biblical Christianity” would apply an equal status to all of the biblical text, would it not. If you want to just look at the New Testament then you are supporting the same hermeneutical relevance you are opposed to. 

    What about having multiple wives? Or marrying your dead brother’s wife? This is completely okay in the biblical world. Additionally, the Leviticus “clobber” passage regarding same-sex activity does not make restrictions for women. Are female same-sex relationships off the hook? Why would one marry their brother’s wife, anyway? 

    The Ancient Near Eastern concepts of marriage compared to our own are worlds apart. In the West we decide marry someone whom we choose ourselves, love, find emotional and physical and spiritual connection and intimacy with. Marriage in the Hebrew Bible is directed towards producing male children, carrying on a family name, and having the persons and means to maintain one’s land or possessions. For the people of God, marriage was also a means towards nation-building and participating in the fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant. 

    The Bible is not as clear on marriage or sexuality as we might think it is or want it to be. 

    As others have implied, regardless of your attempts to be open, your conversionism insists that God will not welcome someone who identifies as LGBTQ into God’s family. Thus, for the sake of the church and for the sake of fidelity to the biblical text, the church must not welcome them either. As such, mere acceptance will never shift to belonging. It will always be stipulated acceptance with lenses that see gay persons as abnormal, sick, lesser than, and in need of fixing because of their sexuality. 

    • John

      Ummm … what is wrong with marrying your dead brother’s wife? 

      Isn’t this web site called “Red Letter Christians”? That seems to suggest a privileging of the words of Jesus. On the Start page, it says the point is to emphasize what Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount. So, how about focus there and see what it tells us.

      • http://profiles.google.com/djmoonw David Moon-Wainwright

        But John, Jesus didn’t say anything on the topic of homosexuality or gay marriage. Pulling in Jesus’ teaching about divorce is not instructive as it only implies what Jesus thought, because…Jesus never said a mumblin’ word on the topic.

        • LT

          True, the New Testament does not record Jesus condemning homosexuality outright.  But He didn’t have to. He went to the heart issue and intensified the
          commands against immoral behavior in the Old Testament. So Jesus
          doesn’t just condemn adultery, for example, as does one of the Ten
          Commandments. Jesus condemns even the lust that leads to adultery, all
          with the purpose of offering us transformed hearts that begin beating in
          step with His radical demands.

          • http://profiles.google.com/djmoonw David Moon-Wainwright

            And yet isn’t it so interesting that Matthew presents Jesus’ final lesson as one which focuses not on the “heart issue” but on the hands and feet, i.e. what we actually say and do. Ultimately Jesus says it is about helping him as he is found in the poorest of the poor, the sick, the imprisoned, the hungry. 

  • http://ricbooth.wordpress.com/ Ric Booth

    Dan Martin, your post/message is deeply offensive. It comforts the comfortable and afflicts the afflicted. It is, in a word, backwards. You however, are human and, as such, can learn and change. You need to take a deep breath and re-read your words. Multiple times, if necessary… until this comment (and others here like it) makes sense to you.

    • Drew

      This is exactly what Dan Martin was talking about.  You paraphrase one quote from scripture, take it out of context, use it to fit your situation – essentially abusing the Word.  By your reasoning, even a drug dealer would be “afflicted,” would they not?  Instead of pretending to be offended, I would try to understand what Dan is saying and what the Bible is saying.

      • http://ricbooth.wordpress.com/ Ric Booth

        Drew, I think I understand Dan just fine. His position was mine not too long ago. The “open but not affirming” stance is going to fall away just as surely as the “separate but equal” stance of the past. If we cannot affirm the couple’s relationship, we are not at all open to welcoming them within our community.

        • Drew

          Skin color is not an action; sexual orientation is not an action; practicing homosexuality is an action.  That is the difference.  The real question is whether scripture should be followed or not, although some people (perhaps validly, perhaps invalidity) question Scripture on this issue.

          • http://ricbooth.wordpress.com/ Ric Booth

            I don’t question scripture, Drew. I do, however, question whether the biases of the past generation affected and negatively impacted their translations. The bible was used to defend slavery and defend withhold the right to vote from women. For centuries. Cultural biases and fears heavily influenced the translation and interpretation of scripture. Even now a church is barring an interracial couple from membership!

            To presume that the sexual revolution of the 50s and 60s did not scare and in some way influence the translators of the day is to presume those humans were somehow more righteous and perfect than all prior humans.

          • Drew

            It’s a lazy argument to say that because people have incorrectly used the Bible to defend points of view in the past, that this is the case in this situation.  If the Bible was used to defend slavery and withholding the right to vote from women incorrectly, and the Bible is being used to defend homosexual practice as a sin, then perhaps the next milestone is polygamy?  Clearly your “cultural bias” and “fears” extends to polygamy as well.  We have to take these situations on a case by case basis.

          • http://ricbooth.wordpress.com/ Ric Booth

            It would only be lazy if unaccompanied by any research. Your point of taking these situations case by case is sound. So go ahead, take this case. When did the term homosexual first appear? When was that translation published? What was going on in the world at that time? Did it’s use increase or decrease in subsequent translations? What was going on in the world at that time?

  • FaithfullyFollowsJesus

    Jesus
    tells us to love our neighbors… He didn’t say love your neighbors as long as
    they are not sinner’s i.e…. gay, spouse abusers, molesters, rapist, drunks,
    drug addicts, murderers, adulterers, or thieves. Jesus ate with tax collectors,
    harlots and sinners. (the
    lost sheep) I am not posting this comment to argue my point. I don’t
    have a point to make. I do read His word daily; I do believe that we must
    repent of our sin and turn away from a sinful lifestyle. I do believe that we
    must strive to not live within a sinful lifestyle. I do believe that we must
    not compare ourselves to others cause what are we comparing ourselves to.? No
    sin is worse or better than the other. Sin is sin! God loves us so much
    He gave His only Son to save us. I just know that Jesus said the two most
    important things you ever do is – 1st love God with all your heart, soul and
    every fiber of our being. 2nd love our neighbors as our selves. I was not
    placed here to judge. There is only one TRUE judge and that’s God! It’s between
    God and His children individually. We must be careful on judging one another
    for you will be judged to the same degree.

    In His sight always!

    In His sight always!

    • Chstrndl

      This comment cuts through all the painfully reductive apologetics of the blog and most replies to it.  Thank you!

      There is nothing remotely new or original in Dan Martin’s views, based, as he claims, in logic and hermaneutics.  I recall reading this sort of deductive literalism in conservative apologists such as Josh McDowell (sp) decades ago.  I would say the problem is in the all too human (and frankly, all too male) logic and hermaneutics that reduce the Word and other transcendent literature to non-contextual, non-paradoxical legalism.  All the better for an Empire to manage?  Fortunately, God, not to mention Christ and the Holy Spirit, are not to be demystified by our broken-handed need to turn everything into an either/or proposition.  As my pastor says on occasion, we worship Father, Son and Holy Ghost, not Father, Son and Holy Scripture.  And who would submit to partial, well-intended, logical readings of the Bible from right or left when we have the Holy Spirit to teach us to love, even glory in the paradox and mystery that legalists  can’t or won’t tolerate? The Spirit is alive everywhere, surely in scripture, but just as surely beyond it, and He will not lead us into error.  As for the risks inherent in a “Both/And” faith practice, I prefer them to the consequences of control, exclusion and limitation commonplace in many churches.  I hope and pray that the Spirit, (unbound from “Either/Or” logic and hermaneutics) will flourish anew in the so-called Post-Christian phase of Western history.  

      • Drew

        I feel bad for you if you belong to the type of Church where they don’t take scripture seriously.  Scripture itself is full of references about the Word of God, and guess what – the Word is found in the Bible.  Yes, the Holy Spirit plays a role, but to say that you just follow the Holy Spirit and whatever you’re “lead’ into is not in error is completely incorrect.

        • Chstrndl

          The Holy Spirit plays “a role”?  Without the Holy Spirit’s guidance at all times and in all places, we could too easily cite isolated bits of scripture and make them serve our private agendas.  I will rather trust where the Spirit leads me, but of course He first leads me to share and consult with other spirit-filled people and keep reading, praying and meditating all the while.  I love scripture, but I do not confuse the worship of God with the worship of a book, or rather one of a thousand translations and interpretations of that book. If this is “completely incorrect,” I will wait to hear that from my Lord, not from someone who tells me the Holy Spirit plays a role but. 

          • Drew

            The reason why Scripture is important is because of people like you who just make up stuff based on how they “feel.”  The beauty of Scripture is that it is permanent; we can change the interpretation perhaps, but we can’t change the words based on what we feel at any given time.

            Let me refer you to Psalm 1:1-3

            “Blessed is the one who does not walk in step with the wicked or stand in the way that sinners take or sit in the company of mockers, but whose delight is in the law of the LORD, and who meditates on his law day and night. That person is like a tree planted by streams of water, which yields its fruit in season and whose leaf does not wither— whatever they do prospers.”

            There are hundreds of these references throughout Scripture – from the Old and New Testament – about the importance of the Word of God.  Now, where do you suppose we get the Word of God?

            The Bible.

          • Chstrndl

            You know really nothing about me, but you assume I “make things up based on how I feel.” Your turning me into a “straw man” indicates a  willfull misunderstanding of what I have said.  I never said that scripture was not important, but I do intend to say that the Bible, standing alone, is not the totality of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Bible, while first and central, is not the only way that God has spoken to us, and to say so is not to ignore scripture.  Further, all the holy books of the world together are not the totality of God’s word because all books, however inspired, are finite, incomplete and point to realities beyond themselves. Where we truly part ways is in our understanding of the law that God has written on our hearts and in the way Spirit speaks to us not only through scripture but also through our prayer lives.  But I am only sharing why I do not worship a book at the same level as I do my Triune God, and am not trying to change anyone’s mind.  I understand and respect your words about the Bible, but I believe your understanding of the Holy Spirit is limited by a disproportionate reliance on law. Such is my opinion, and we all have too many of those no matter what Bible we read.  But I will not say you are incorrect nor assume you believe what you do out of personal weakness.  This is the final difference in our views.   I have greatly enjoyed this exchange, and I wish you a blessed Advent, Drew.

          • Drew

            I don’t disagree with you except for when you say things that blatantly are against scripture and write it off as the “holy spirit” speaking to you.

          • Chstrndl

            I do not live out of the Bible alone, nor do I embrace every scripture in it.  Really nobody does or can live that way in practice.  The Bible is a holy book, but it is not the only holy book, the only communication from God.   I know this places me outside of most Christian churches, but as a gay man (who feels drawn to celibacy, as it happens) this is nothing new.  I know that, left to myself, I could easily distort what I hear friom Sprit, but as you don’t seem to understand, I don’t go it alone, nor am I easy on myself.  Your responses to me have, if anything, encouraged me to seek still more discernment, for which I bless you.

  • Anonymous

    Why do so many of the responses boil down to simply: “What you’ve said is offensive to me!”

    The question Martin seems to be asking is this:  Once the church decides to move away from the “one man-one woman” model of marriage where does it stop?  What sexual urge or relationship shouldn’t it bless?  If there is some sexual urge or relationship that it shouldn’t bless, what should the basis for withholding that blessing be?

    I don’t doubt that there is an answer to this question, but I don’t see it here (yet).

    • Peter Garcia

      The “one man-one woman” model is the problem. Maybe problem is not the right word. What I am getting at is that our relationships, regardless of who the parties are, must be loving, gentle, compassionate, self-sacrificing, and building individuals up rather than oppressing them or bringing them down. That is the model for all relationships which we inherit from Jesus.

      That said, we can and must condemn sexual urges and relationships that fall outside of these lines whether they be between persons of the same sex or different sexes. Violence, oppression, abuse, manipulation, coercion, etc, do not know the difference between gay and straight. They happen across socioeconomic, national, and religious lines, as well as gendered lines. 

      Conversely, we affirm and encourage and support loving relationships when they exhibit the character of God. 

      To claim that unless we uphold marriage as between one man and one woman there is no sexual ethic is plain wrong. 

      What I was getting at in my earlier response is the purpose of marriage in the biblical text versus the purpose in marriage today. Marriage as two people joining in union has remained as the core understanding, but much has changed. What I’m saying is that the case for restrictive marriage ethics can only be made if the primary function and purpose in marriage is to produce children, and specifically, male heirs. Consequently, that would also restrict the function of sex to only be conception. 

      Within that framework, it makes perfect sense why biblical law would include injunctions against same-sex activity.

      • Anonymous

        Thanks for the response Peter.  I understand what you’re saying here and agree that those sexual urges and relationships that involve violence, oppression, abuse, etc. shouldn’t be condoned. In fact, they should be condemned.  And you’re right that they happen across all sorts of boundaries.

        But what Martin was asking was what do we do about other sexual relationships (when they don’t involve any of those negative things) such as “polygamy/polyandry, pedophilia, multiple divorces & remarriages (“serial monogamy,” it’s sometimes called)…” etc.  

        Saying “we affirm and encourage and support loving relationships when they exhibit the character of God” you’re leaving a lot of room for the church’s affirmation of all those alternative relationships that Martin mentioned.  What you’ve said allows for the affirmation of many other relationships other than loving relationships betweens two monogamous adults that exhibit the character of God.  Would you acknowledge that?  If so, I think that’s what troubles Martin (or at least it’s one of the things).

        • Peter Garcia

          You’re right. I am leaving a lot of room open ;-)

          More than these are ethics and values issues, for Christians, these are pastoral issues as well and we have the responsibility to foster relationships of peace between persons and between persons and God. That means the church has to wrestle hard with these matters of relationship, sexuality, and love. The church can no longer claim that one’s integrity, value, worth, or inclusion into community is determined by who one loves.

          Onto the “alternative relationships” you mentioned…Why is polygamy so wrong if all persons are consenting and there is no abuse or coercion or signs of oppression? Personally, I feel that polygyny is patriarchal and exploits traditional gender roles. It is interesting that we do not have cultural referents for polyandry and that we take polygamy to only mean one husband and multiple wives. It is not for everyone, nor does anyone have to participate in it. I could not participate in a situation like that, but if there is love and equality and mutuality present, I cannot condemn it and feel no need to condemn it.

          I am in a committed, monogamous relationship with a woman whom I love and who makes me more complete. I could not imagine anyone telling me that it is wrong for me to love her.

          Is monogamy the indispensable companion to loving relationship? Or is it commitment? That is a valid question that will eventually confront the church. Marriage is a social construction rather than something fixed and unchanging. As such, it will be continue to be challenged and will continue to shift.

          Probably not the answer you expected. Bottom line is that our journeys toward God are affected by all aspects of our lives–emotional, spiritual, relational, intellectual, and physical–and I’m not so sure that our striving for shalom entails more rigidity in marriage ethics than in how we love and treat one another in relationship.

          • Keith Carr61

            Peter, Are you a pastor and if so what church and where do you preach?

          • Peter Garcia

            Keith, I am not a pastor. I’m a curious student of the Bible, theology and history. I have a lot more questions than I do answers. However, it is my belief that theology outside of the context of community and relationships is dangerous. 

            The heteronormativity that marks evangelicalism is destructively exclusive and relegates those who fall outside of the perceived norm as unacceptable. The generalized norm of heterosexuality excludes the particulars of life and treats embodiment as if it reflects only one image. Peter in Acts 10 is so instructive here for our inclusion of those that the majority deem the ‘Other’. 

            There is a fundamental tension in this discussion between the nature of the gospel. Is the gospel one of repentance? Or is it one of love and acceptance? That’s a false dichotomy, though. Of course it is both. However we are disagreeing on what needs to be repented of. One side says it is one’s attraction to the same sex and subsequent physical activity, and the other side says that what must be repented of is our failure to love God and love others as we would want to be loved, looking beyond whom one is attracted to.

            There is great fear (homophobia) in the church in being identified among people who identify as LGBT. For Christians to resist solidarity, love, and acceptance is to put a protective barrier around Jesus and say “you can’t have him until you are like me.” That is not the way that we see Jesus operating in the gospels, nor would most Christians so fervently apply the same attitude towards other persons. From Luther we live within the tension simul justus et peccator; we are righteous and sinful at the same time. Christians do not tell a greedy person to stop being greedy and then come to Jesus, or a racist to stop being racist and then come to Jesus. Christians believe that in coming to Jesus, God re-orients one’s life towards the love of the Trinity. We come to Jesus in grace to participate in what it means to be fully human, to find wholeness and peace, and to enter into a community of love with God and neighbor. To cordon people off from that because of who they are attracted to is not okay.

            Whether you like it or not, there are many LGBT persons who identify as Christians, participate in churches and even pastor churches. They love God deeply and strive to reflect God’s image. I’ve personally been highly influenced by Christians who identify as gay or lesbian. Keith, I know that you desperately want people to come to Jesus, even people attracted to the same-sex. The reality is that gay persons are drawing near to Jesus (or gay Christians are coming out and embracing their identity) and are bringing the community of heaven to earth. Evangelical resistance to the LGBT community pushes people away from Jesus rather than drawing them to Jesus. That is not something I want to be a part of. 

        • Aaaaaaaaaargh

          I agree with Peter here, and this is where the article failed to convince me.  Polygamy and pedophilia involve an obvious inbalance of power and thus seem inherently oppressive.  While any homosexual or heterosexual relationship has the potential for exploitation, they seem categorically different from polygamy/pedophilia as they involve presumably equal partners.

          This doesn’t get at the Scriptural argument, but the “sliding scale” (accepting gay marriage leads to permitting pedophilia) invoked by the article’s author doesn’t appear in Scripture either.

          • Drew

            I appreciate you being honest and letting us know upfront that what you are saying is your own secular opinion and not based in anything Scriptural.  Most people are not that honest.

          • Aaaaaaaaaargh

            Clever–that means you can completely ignore the point I was making!

            Just because I don’t have a prooftext doesn’t mean that my argument isn’t “based in anything Scriptural.”  This is why we’re all talking past each other in the comments on both articles–each “side” is reading the same Bible, but we’re reading it in fundamentally different ways.  

            Are you a fan of slavery?  Women who can’t speak in church?  No possibility of divorce in abusive marriages?  My Bible supports all of those things in the letter of the law, but not (I believe) in spirit.  Am I wrong to interpret it thus?

          • Drew

            Exodus 21:26 actually does speak against what you think of as slavery. 
            Biblical slavery was often different than your Americanized view of
            slavery.  It could be due to debt, prisoner of war status, or punishment
            for a crime.

            You are correct though – we are reading the Bible
            in fundamentally different ways.  Unfortunately, reading it through a
            liberal, secular frame of reference and not understanding passages in
            context is no way to read it.

          • Aaaaaaaaaargh

            Again, I don’t think I’m reading my Bible through liberal or secular glasses, and I could just as easily argue that you are basing your claims on a literalized reading that fails to take cultural context and issues of translation and interpretation into account.

            You’re stating that my understanding of “slavery” is incorrectly coloured by an Americanized view (I’m Canadian, but close enough).  Are you so sure your understanding of “homosexuality” isn’t similarly contingent?

      • Doug

        ‘The “one man-one woman” model is the problem’

        Not according to the scriptures. The problem is non acceptance of the model Peter.

  • Keith Carr61

    Dan, I applaud you for this article….I have read the garbage below attacking your article and misrepresenting what you wrote and scripture to meet their goal of causing confusion on a clear topic.
    What shocks me and should shock Tony Campolo is the number of Homosexuals on this site who are commenting and attacking conservative posts. You should really consider what this site is becoming and exactly what this site is promoting. When the “world’ is applauding your liberal garbage and you are attracting many who are defensively and aggressively defending SIN you must ask yourself if you are on the right track. I am thankful for the conservatives on this site and those who arent scared to stand up to the psuedo intellectual individuals who want to throw confusing and contrary explanations to topics they want to promote.
    GOD IS NOT THE AUTHOR OF CONFUSION so if you are telling people that they have to be a rogue scholar in order to understand scripture… I say you are the problem for the lost…not the answer.

    • Matt

      Dominating performance in the comments section Keith Carr61. Nicely done. Keep fighting the good fight.

    • http://nailtothedoor.blogspot.com Dan Martin

      Keith, I appreciate that you’re trying to defend me.  Wasn’t going to respond directly to most of the comments on this article as I think they’re largely engaging with objections I did not raise and failing to engage with the ones I did.  But I have to say that your obvious hostility toward “homosexuals” as you are using the term, is categorically *not* what I’m advocating.  I’m not one of your “fellow conservatives” any more than I’m one of their “fellow liberals.”  My real issue is that a Biblical (and particularly, New Testament) examination of the issue does not sit comfortably with either “wing” of the argument.

      But since I’m replying anyway, I will add that I would challenge those who arguing that marriage should be all about increasing the love, to back up their argument from Scripture, and to acknowledge that my argument studiously avoided the usual “clubbing verses.”  If marriage is about “increasing the love” I wonder just what teaching of Jesus they would point to to support that contention…

      • Anonymous

        Marriage is a specific instance of Jesus’ command to love our neighbors as ourselves, or the even higher standard to love our neighbor as Jesus loves us.

        It is not a sacrament. It is not holy or unique or a timeless institution. The ordinary practice of marriage throughout scripture was polygamy. Jesus taught that marriage wouldn’t exist in the Kingdom, he was himself apparently unmarried and Paul taught that marriage was inferior to celibacy. I note these things to bring the thoroughly modern idea of romantic marriage between 1 man and 1 woman down off of its pedestal a bit.

        Given the NT understanding of marriage as a cultural practice, an accommodation to human desires which is permissible and even good if it both partners reflect the love of Christ through the arrangement the best judge of a righteous relationship is whether the people involved are more loving not just toward each other, but toward the world when they are together than when they are apart. A marriage, as Luther said, should be a school of holiness teaching each person involved how to follow Christ more closely each day.

        There are countless traditional marriages which fail this test. These marriages are sources of strife and centers of abuse that degrade the the capacity of the individuals involved to love others. God does not bless these relationships even though they meet all the formal criteria (1man + 1woman no premarital or extramarital sex etc…).

        There are non-traditional marriages which also fail to be schools of holiness. There are many non-traditional marriages though which work in precisely this way: building each other up for service. God does bless these marriages just as Jesus blessed many who violated the formal standards of religious purity and righteousness in his day.

      • Anonymous

        Marriage is a specific instance of Jesus’ command to love our neighbors as ourselves, or the even higher standard to love our neighbor as Jesus loves us.

        It is not a sacrament. It is not holy or unique or a timeless institution. The ordinary practice of marriage throughout scripture was polygamy. Jesus taught that marriage wouldn’t exist in the Kingdom, he was himself apparently unmarried and Paul taught that marriage was inferior to celibacy. I note these things to bring the thoroughly modern idea of romantic marriage between 1 man and 1 woman down off of its pedestal a bit.

        Given the NT understanding of marriage as a cultural practice, an accommodation to human desires which is permissible and even good if it both partners reflect the love of Christ through the arrangement the best judge of a righteous relationship is whether the people involved are more loving not just toward each other, but toward the world when they are together than when they are apart. A marriage, as Luther said, should be a school of holiness teaching each person involved how to follow Christ more closely each day.

        There are countless traditional marriages which fail this test. These marriages are sources of strife and centers of abuse that degrade the the capacity of the individuals involved to love others. God does not bless these relationships even though they meet all the formal criteria (1man + 1woman no premarital or extramarital sex etc…).

        There are non-traditional marriages which also fail to be schools of holiness. There are many non-traditional marriages though which work in precisely this way: building each other up for service. God does bless these marriages just as Jesus blessed many who violated the formal standards of religious purity and righteousness in his day.

      • Keith Carr61

        Dan, I appreciate your response and I did get the fact that you disagree with some conservative stances at times however that is beside the point. I agree with your post and will defend your stance as I read it. No hate here….just standing up for what I believe the same way I would protect my house from the corrosive winds that would damage it slowly and destroy it in the end.

    • Zach R

      Dude Keith seriously, your comments are really mean. I agree with a lot of what you’re saying but the way you say it only serves to create more and more acrimony between Christians of different views, some of whom are legitimately trying to come closer together rather than moving apart. As Christians, our highest priority absolutely ought to be the proclamation of truth, but we are called to speak the truth in love, and to maintain the unity of the body of Christ as much as possible. It does not seem to me that that is what you are doing.

      • Aaaaaaaaaargh

        Absolutely.  Keith, you are acting like a bully, and your tone is off-putting.  It’s one thing to “take a stand for Scripture,” but calling anyone who disagrees with you a “liberal homosexual” (both of which are obviously on the level of curse words to you) is not helping your argument.

  • Doug

    Well spoken Dan, it is not about human beings ‘doing their own thing’ rather than accepting that opposition to God’s will re sexuality ( or anything else for that matter ) is sinful.

    You have taken a principled biblical stand whilst displaying grace and compassion. Good on you.

    Don’t be surprised that you will be attacked by ‘the enlightened ones’ -

    “There is toleration for everybody who conforms to the fashion of the day; but no toleration for anyone who believes that the laws of heaven should regulate life on earth.” -CH Spurgeon

    • Drew2

      It’s all very well to talk about being attacked by the “enlightened ones” (your sneer is evident)  However, real people’s lives are tremendously impacted by decisions that result from wrestling with these questions, even though the discussion is, I suspect, only academic to you and many if not most of the participants here.

  • Anonymous

    Found it interesting but still doesn’t change my mind.  We are all broken but sexuality is not one of the ways we are broken…

    • Doug

      Anon
      So pedophile sexuality is not broken sexuality ?

  • Dwayne

    I agree with you on all points.

  • Helen J

    Hi Everyone,
    Please read and consider the current Church of England official stand: see http://www.churchofengland.org/our-views/marriage,-family-and-sexuality-issues/human-sexuality/homosexuality.aspx

    The English clergy has been trying to deal with this issue for years. I believe it to be a humane and biblically-faithful stand.

    Cheers from Canada

  • Helen J

    Hi People:
    Please consider the current position of the Church of England, House of Bishops stand. It can be read at http://www.churchofengland.org/our-views/marriage,-family-and-sexuality-issues/human-sexuality/homosexuality.aspx

    I believe it puts forward a humane and biblically-faithful view

  • Drew

    “If the New Testament standard is to be discarded or reinterpreted away…”

    People are uncomfortable with the idea of truth.  I’ve never seen a poll in my life where 100% of the people were in favor of one thing while 0% of the people were in favor of the other.  There are 38,000 Christian denominations for this very reason.  Whether it is maliciously or innocently, people often conform the Word to their lives rather than to conform their lives to the Word.  Sometimes they discard entire passages.  Most of the time it is more clever, simply reinterpreting certain passages or words to fit their lives.

    Thank you for taking a stand for Scripture.

  • http://profiles.google.com/djmoonw David Moon-Wainwright

    Dan,
    Sexual purity? Really? Please show me anywhere in the law that men must remain “sexually pure.” It is a women only policy.
    Marriage? Biblically includes polygamy, you know.
    How do you feel about Tamar as being in the blood line to Jesus? Hardly “sexually pure” although Judah declares her position as just.
    How about Acts 10? Can we not recognize that God has blessed these people, called them his children and works through them in mighty ways? Can we not see that God has already poured out God’s Spirit on them and they are us? We are them?

    • Benmanben

      What do you mean by “biblically includes”?

      Not EVERYTHING MENTIONED in the Bible is endorsed by it.It may have certain key figures who are not faithful in marriage,
      that doesn’t mean that they are sexually obeying the law.

      • http://profiles.google.com/djmoonw David Moon-Wainwright

        Well, Nathan never confronted David about multiple wives. Nor was Jacob (i.e. Israel) nor others. The law does not proscribe nor encourage polygamy. It was an accepted fact.

        • Benmanben

          I don’t think he needed to be “confronted.”
          I think the Bible makes clear what is sinful and what is not.

          • http://profiles.google.com/djmoonw David Moon-Wainwright

            And in this age we reject slavery, polygamy, child wives, whereas Scriptures allowed these practices to continue. Divorce is roundly repudiated and yet today we embrace it, whether liberal, conservative, red-letter or evangelical. 
            Yes, the bible does make clear what is sinful: oppressing the poor and powerless, the alien in our midst, is at the top of the list.

  • Keith Carr61

    Dan, I really didnt realize how much trouble the church was in until I joined this site. I fear an ugly ‘battle’ is coming between those who want to follow scripture and those who want to follow their feeling.

  • Drew

    Exodus 21:26 actually does speak against what you think of as slavery.  Biblical slavery was often different than your Americanized view of slavery.  It could be due to debt, prisoner of war status, or punishment for a crime.

    You are correct though – we are reading the Bible in fundamentally different ways.  Unfortunately, reading it through a liberal, secular frame of reference and not understanding passages in context is no way to read it.

  • Questioning

    First of all my story…  I am a happily married Christian heterosexual male who just recently learned my son is gay. Additionally, I belong to the Baptist denomination and serve in my church as a choir member, a deacon and part time Sunday School teacher. I only say those things to give a point of reference for my comments, not to brag or impress. In truth, I am not so much interested in the issue of gay marriage by the church. I still believe that Holy Matrimony belongs between a man and a woman, since that was God’s plan for procreation, which is a miraculous and wonderful mystery. I suspect many homosexuals who want to enter into a union would understand that and accept a civil union. What I am more interested in is the choice “sin” question.  Is the choice to pursue a relationship within our natural orientation sin? To me, this is the larger more immediate, more important question, especially given my situation. I read your blog and picked out some areas that I wanted to comment on.  The comments in italics are mine.     
     
    Therefore, the argument goes, the church should stop teaching LGBTQ behavior is immoral, welcome these individuals into full fellowship, and even bless their lifestyles and unions in the church. 
    Let’s set aside the marriage issue for a minute and just consider the teaching and fellowship aspects of this comment.  In my church, and I suspect quite a few others, nothing is really “taught” about LGBTQ behavior. To anyone with a mind half open, it is a gray area inside a mine field.  So, it is left up to the individual pretty much to, within their own personal relationship with God, pray, decide and act in love no matter what. This has been the primary thing that has kept me plugged in to my loving church. Now let’s look at this from the eyes of a homosexual wanting to enter a church fellowship. It sounds to me like you are saying that “I will accept you and give you full fellowship, only if you are not a practicing homosexual. If you do practice then there is no way I can ever take you seriously as a committed, Jesus loving, God fearing brother or in other words, my equal.” Even though I am not to blame for my orientation or similarly I am not to blame for my skin color. Given the fact that homosexuality is now accepted as an orientation and not a choice, and largely due to that fact I think, the scriptures are being re-examined. Should we be teaching something we are not absolutely sure about? I salute those who maintain a celibate life, whether hetero or homo, but to seriously expect all homosexuals, who are professing Christians, to remain celibate before accepting them into “full” fellowship is setting the bar very high.  
     
    There are many who suggest that the New Testament writers never considered same-sex unions when they wrote about marital fidelity, because they were in a conservative culture that would not have even thought about it.  Any reference to the sexuality of Greek and Roman culture seems to me more than sufficient to put this idea to rest.  Jesus, Paul, and the rest were perfectly familiar with same-sex relationships in the broader culture. 
    I scanned the Wikipedia sites and in the Greek it apparently was known of and manifested itself more as sex between a man and a boy while in the Roman culture it was known of and accepted as long as you were not in the submissive role. It also would seem that male prostitutes and slaves were often the targets. What I see as being different today is the human understanding of it based on knowledge we have gained in the millennia since then.  How long has it been known and accepted that it is an orientation and not a choice or an evil spirit or some other sinister thing?  Not that long.  So I would argue that the New Testament writers would have seen this as an area of paganism, of evil spirits and maybe even a punishment from God.  Just an opinion. Accepting that just for a second, why would they ever have considered it as part of marital fidelity?  To think the world was round was once considered heresy… just sayin…..  Knowledge does and sometimes should change things.

    Wes Hill stated it well (I recommend you read his entire message here):
    …although many people find themselves, through no fault of their own, to have sexual desires for members of their own sex, this is not something to be affirmed and celebrated but is, rather, a sign that we are broken, in need of redemption and re-creation. Gay people are not uniquely broken—that’s a position we share with every other human who has ever lived, or will live—but we are, nonetheless, broken. And following Jesus means turning our backs on a life of sexual sin, just as it does for every other Christian.
    I think I might disagree with something here. I would suggest that if gay people are broken because of their orientation, then they ARE uniquely broken. If homosexuality is genetically determined, then they are broken at birth. Are we not innocent at birth… we have the propensity to sin and we learn and fall into sin as we get older.  Isn’t sin primarily learned behavior? Not in this case….  Apparently we are physically born into it…..  
     
     As I wrote in the post I linked above, I do not think many of the texts people often interpret to condemn homosexuality–e.g. 1 Cor. 6:9–are as clear as the fundamentalist might wish (for an interesting read on these passages, though I disagree with his ultimate conclusion, see this article by Dale B. Martin; his error is to fail to engage the broader questions of marriage and adultery in the N.T.).  It is not that somehow “gay adultery” is somehow “worse” or “more perverted” than the straight kind.  It’s just still adultery.
    I read the excellent article by Mr. Martin and this is squarely the bull’s eye of what I am struggling with in counseling my son. Is the “choice” to pursue a homosexual relationship, one that is loving and monogamous, a sin?  The article presents a solid argument that those, “two little words”, used and translated into the condemning passages, are not at all clearly understood and possibly some shaky conclusions were drawn. You seem to agree with this, since you state that the passages are not as clear as we would like for them to be. What if the translation is wrong here and that was not the intended message? So as Mr. Martin pointed out we run to the “what the scripture says” defense when maybe a more correct statement is “what the translation says” defense.  I think, at least some of us, are beginning to realize that there is room for doubt here. Consider, just for a moment what it would mean if we have gotten this wrong.  Since we may not know for sure where should we side? Finally, I am also perplexed by your “his error” statement. Is adultery not sex outside of marriage or in the broader biblical sense the breaking of a covenant, in this case, the marriage covenant? If that is true why would he have addressed the broader questions of marriage and adultery when gays do not marry? 

    The drive to “affirm” gay unions seems to me to be an attempt to lift out the one issue of same-sex attraction and somehow separate it from all the other ways in which fallen humanity expresses its sexuality.  I can see neither a Biblical nor a logical rationale in which to affirm the gay union without also choosing to condone polygamy/polyandry, pedophilia, multiple divorces & remarriages (“serial monogamy,” it’s sometimes called), and on and on, just so long as both (all?) parties consent.
    These statements are puzzling. First of all polygamy/polyandry and pedophilia are against the law and both are exploitive. Why the church would ever consider condoning those is beyond me. As far as divorces, remarriage, serial monogamy, etc… the church already condones those.

    I do not claim that any of this is easy.  Celibacy is a tough choice for the gay and the straight.  I find the various claims of people having been “cured” of same-sex attraction to be as questionable as most gay-rights activists do.  Frankly, this isn’t unique to sex.  An awful lot of addicts I’ve known have struggled to some degree with their addictions for many years after going clean. 
    Yes there are all kinds of addictions, even sexual ones, but are you really claiming that a loving, monogamous, relationship between same sex partners is a form of addiction? 
    To reiterate, I really struggle with knowing what counsel to give to my son. There’s a lot of gray area to color in here. All I can do is pray and wait. In my heart, I don’t believe there is anything wrong with a loving, healthy, monogamous relationship between same sex partners. Could I be wrong? Of course.  Am I swayed because of love for my son? Again, of course. I also believe that civil unions between gay partners should be legal. Indeed I also believe that we are sometimes empowering, aiding and abetting promiscuous homosexual activity by denying it.
    Now here are some things I know.  My son, who is a Christian, is very reluctant to return to his home church because he knows he will not be accepted, at least not by all, even though all claim to be Christians.  He has not “come out” publicly, primarily he feels, to protect his parents and the hurt it would cause. Additionally I am struggling with serving in a church where I know my son would not be accepted and loved for who he is.
     In a revival we had a year or so ago, (long before I knew my son’s situation) a very “experienced” Baptist minister conducting the revival starting railing against gays. He said they had started a gay church in his community and that we had to stop them and close them down. I remember thinking how wrong that attitude was, even then, unfortunately that is what we are often dealing with. We have a long way to go…..  but discussions like this are a start.       

    • Aaaaaaaaaargh

      I think you have raised a lot of important questions here.  I’m just going to respond to one thing inspired by your post: nobody would have convinced me that homosexuality wasn’t sin before I found out a good friend of mine is gay.  Funny how my opinions started “broadening” after that–something I view as both a natural human response of compassion, and a spirit-inspired understanding of God’s heart.  I wonder how many people here have a similar story?

      It’s easy to theorize abstractly.  Millions of gay individuals=a statistic.  One gay friend (or son)=something very different.  When I see how my friend has been hurt by his church, I ache inside.

      Conversely though (now I’m musing to myself), I guess that I’m also realizing that some of the voices of loud opposition being raised here may have their own human connection to “homosexuality” and perhaps are responding out of genuine fear for a loved one’s soul.  Just think about the role that kind of behaviour might play in ultimately driving that loved one away from Jesus, though…

      • Benmanben

        I think it is good to ache for others, and recognize their pain, including homosexuals who struggle with fitting into the Church.
        I think it is possible to disagree with certain actions someone does, but still love that person.
        I think all of us, accepting Christ, have sinned at some time or another. I don’t think we need to hate those who behave differently. I think we can still find certain ACTIONS to be immoral, but to treat someone as less than ourselves is NOT what we should be doing.

    • http://nailtothedoor.blogspot.com Dan Martin

      Questioning, you raise some honest and humble questions here.  You do however assume that the issue of a same-sex orientation being “not a choice.”  I’ve read a variety of the studies in this regard…I actually majored in Biology so understand them to a degree.  There’s still quite a bit of controversy over the question of whether there is or is not a “gay gene” (or genes), and not only is that question not resolved, there are plenty both pro- and anti-gay folks who are unsure whether that’s a legitimate (or safe) question to pursue or not.

      The argument is sometimes made that same-sex behavior is seen in other parts of the animal kingdom, therefore it’s natural.  By that logic, multi-partner promiscuity, pedophilia, rape, and lots of other things are *also* observed in the animal kingdom, and yet we still acknowledge, straight or gay, that these things are wrong and unacceptable…and not just because they’re illegal.

      Are some people born with an “orientation” they can’t choose, and in fact would not choose if given the choice?  Indisputably.  But this is true of all sorts of inclination, including addictive behaviors, domineering personalities, and all sorts of other behavioral traits that we do not therefore affirm as “natural” and therefore good.  Again, not equating same-sex attraction with these things, but rather saying that the argument that people are born with it does not, of itself, make for a rational justification.

      I would reiterate that I do not accept the fundamentalist interpretation of a lot of the verses commonly used to beat gay folks over the head…I acknowledge the uncertainty of interpretation and translation of many of them.  I still think that’s beside the point, in that I believe a biblical perspective on sexuality sees it as appropriate within the confines of marriage, and marriage as a heterosexual construction.  In the secular world, I agree we need to back off.  Nobody should be trying to force those who don’t even claim to be Christians, to behave as though they were.

      Likewise I affirm the comments many have made on this thread, that no reasonable read of Jesus’ way suggests people have to abandon all their sin to even approach Jesus…none of us meets that standard…but that does not obviate the need to recognize and deal with sin once we’ve acknowledged his lordship.  And adultery, straight or gay, is still sin.

      This still leaves you and your son in a tight spot.  I don’t presume to speak for you.  I don’t presume to have all the answers.  I do still believe that for the church to affirm, and in particular to bless, same sex unions runs counter to the teaching of both Old and (more particularly) New Testaments.  But between that perspective and the utterly reprehensible attitude of Westborough Baptist, there lies a wide chasm.

      • Christine Spencer

        One reason for marriage is so that people will not be overcome with sensual desires.  Paul talks about this in 1 Timothy 5:
        11As for younger widows, do not put them on such a list. For when their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ, they want to marry. 12Thus they bring judgment on themselves, because they have broken their first pledge.
        So, heterosexual widows should enter into marriage again so they don’t start into sexual immorality.  

        Should homosexuals not also have marriage so they are not sexually immoral?

        Do you think anyone actually took the time to think about gay people then?  Look, here are the facts….the teachers of the law piled it on THICK so thick that Jesus CONDEMNED them.  The early church was reaching out fast and furious to people.  Gay people were invisible then except as temple prostitutes or homosexual sex acts to false Gods…..so you bet…those practices were condemned.  As was pedophilia, hey that really hurts someone by violating a bond of trust….just like incest.

        We should be doing what has the best outcomes for people as we can observe.  The best integration into society, the least probability of the spread of diseases, the most fulfilling relationships that they can have.  

        If someone is Gay, they don’t need to go to church which has traditionally had them killed, castrated, tortured, etc for who they are.  They have some amazing faith to be there.  That should be respected and we should be thoughtful and look for Gods true will based on the observable outcomes.

        • http://nailtothedoor.blogspot.com Dan Martin

          A reasonable and logical argument, Christine.  Just one that, as I read Scripture, falls outside God’s intentions for sexuality.  We have lots of Scripture related to marriage, from Jesus’ reiteration of the Genesis definition of two becoming one, to Paul’s admonitions as to how husbands and wives ought to treat each other (mutual submission out of reverence for Christ).  None of these countenances same-sex unions, and I do not see from a Biblical, Christian stance, how extending the male-female definition of marriage to persons of the same sex is defensible.

          From a health or disease or secular law point of view, there is plenty of good logic to having any form of sexuality be expressed monogamously.  A committed relationship is unquestionably superior to multipartner couplings, and even more so to anonymous sex (this is true, straight or gay).

          But while your application of 1 Tim. 5 makes *logical* sense, I do not think it obviates the *moral* definition of sex outside the heterosexual marriage being sinful.

          Please note, I did not say (as some commenters seem to have suggested) that gay people have only the choices of celibacy or hell.  That’s not how I read my Bible with regard to *any* sin.  I do think, however, that those that make the case for “loving” responses, all too often forget that the same Jesus who dined openly with tax collectors and whores, also called people who chose to follow him, to “repent” of all sorts of stuff…not all sexual.  The church does not do well if it replaces calls to repentance (for those who have first acknowledged Jesus’ lordship) with redefining the old, sinful life as actually blessed by God.

        • Benmanben

          I believe a person can be single and not be sexually immoral. Wasn’t Paul single? I’m not suggesting he was always sexually moral, but I don’t think there is anything wrong with being single.

        • Benmanben

          I believe a person can be single and not be sexually immoral. Wasn’t Paul single? I’m not suggesting he was always sexually moral, but I don’t think there is anything wrong with being single.

  • Questioning

    Sorry my italics did not show up. My comments are below the authors. 

  • Pingback: Loving Our Neighbor…, Kinda

  • Drew

    So, Dan, can you tell me what “love”, sans affirmation, looks like where the rubber hits the road? As a 50 year old gay man, celibate to date, hanging on to my Christianity by my fingertips, I grow weary of these discussions. Let’s face it: the vast majority of people are fueled intimate relationships. It’s the thing that gets them out of bed in the morning, gives them hope, pulls them back from the precipice. 

    Dan, with your wife and three children, living in Atlanta, I don’t think I can wait any longer for “.. the Church shelter and nourish and humanize those who are deeply lonely and struggling desperately to remain faithful.” 

    • http://nailtothedoor.blogspot.com Dan Martin

      Drew, you ask an excellent question for which I really don’t have a good answer.  I do not even know if my own church would be the place to seek it, as I’m already too “liberal” for my church in a lot of ways.  I can tell you that though I’ve had and have gay friends, I’ve never known *believing* gay friends, so I can only hypothesize.

      The best attempt at a halting, imperfect answer I can come up with is this:  if we were geographically accessible to each other, we would have to try and work this out together.  It would be an experiment, as in fact all relationships that are worth anything are experiments.  I’d probably get it wrong a lot…maybe you would too.  I would hope we’d both grow in the process.  But I stand by my statement that it is the church’s duty, which means *my* duty if and when I encounter someone in your situation.

      Would it be “enough?”  I don’t honestly know.  Is this answer “enough?”  Probably not.  But it’s as candid as I know how to be.

      • Drew

        Hi Dan,

        Thanks for responding and for doing so graciously. (BTW, I’ll wager you do have gay “believing” friends but just aren’t aware of that facet of their lives.) I don’t know if it would be enough. I guess the thing is too that I don’t want to be anyone’s duty or project. It’s mutual obligation and commitment that I desire. Otherwise, one ends up feeling unnecessary.  I also don’t think that sort of of lopsidedness is health in the long term.

        I think it’s sad that your church doesn’t appear to be the sort of place where one can wrestle with these sorts of things. Where else should we be able to get messy as we figure out how to love one another?

        • http://nailtothedoor.blogspot.com Dan Martin

          I wouldn’t take the opposite side of your wager, Drew.  The thought occurred to me even as I wrote that.

          I also understand your response to my use of the word “duty.”  It was probably a poor choice of words.  I genuinely mean it as a call to fellowship, not as “cross to bear” to use the old Baptist terminology.

          And you’re right, the inability to wrestle with stuff like this in my church has been an ongoing source of frustration for me on many issues…in fact it’s really what led me to begin blogging.

          In other words, “yes” to everything you just said.  Peace!

          • Drew2

            Hey Dan,

            Drew here again…Drew2 now (there’s another Drew lurking about – ha ha). I’ve been
            reviewing some of the posts on here again. I must say I’m more than a
            little shocked and saddened by some of the vitriol coming from
            some of the participants. I really do understand the conservative point
            of view. I grew up with a pretty orthodox take on things. It’s something I’m gradually shedding as I grow older. Things
            are messy and gray for me because I don’t fit neatly into the nice
            little box that has been set out for me. So I’m having to re evaluate
            what I once held to be immutable. That doesn’t mean I’m tossing it all
            out. Anyway….

            You know, I hate the casual labels of “homophobia” and “haters.” I sometimes think that stuff is thrown about far too easily simply because someone has an honest and thoughtful difference of opinion. Nonetheless, a lot of the vibe I’m getting from some of the contributors here is, well, pretty hateful. I don’t know how else to characterize it. I don’t understand where this anger comes from. I never asked to be gay. I wish it were otherwise. Life would be a lot simpler and probably a lot easier. I, and many others here, are just stumbling along trying to reconcile that which is so deeply rooted in their being with their faith.

            I’m not sure where I stand on the whole thing, how to approach the bible and so on. I’m trying to work that out against the background of own prejudices and limited understanding. But the more I plow through these kinds of blogs the more I understand why the gay community wants nothing to do with Christians…for reasons that have nothing to do with “having your own way”, “wallowing in sin”, etc. A lot of the Christian community really does hate us. I never thought I’d say that. I thought it was all hyperbole and rhetoric but I think perhaps it really is true.

          • http://nailtothedoor.blogspot.com Dan Martin

            I agree with you completely, Drew(2 ha!).  The hatred is both unmistakable and from a Christian point of view, intolerable.  Honestly, I don’t blame a whole lot of people, gay folks included, for running screaming from anything remotely associated with Christians.  You may find this old post of mine interesting on that front.

            I do think (as I sense you do) that the term “homophobia” gets used rather sloppily, but the fact remains that there is real homophobia and perhaps “homo-odia,” gay-hating, among far too many Christians.

          • Tobias

            Hey Drew. While I can completely understand what you mean by “I never asked to be gay. I wish it was otherwise.”, it also somehow made me sad. I believe, if God is real (which I put my hope on), we should happily embrace who we are (which does not mean that we shouldn’t worry about our actions).

            A friend of mine read a quote for me a while ago that said something like (translated from German): “Love your fate. It is God’s way with your soul.”

  • Doug Sloan

    The arguement would have some validity if all or any of the biblical authors had the same understanding of human biology, physiology, and psychology that we have. The biblical authors did not have such an understanding. Not only have we moved beyond their scientific understanding, we have also moved beyond their morality – one example is slavery.

    Another problem is assuming that a person who is gay is defined only by their sexual desire - it is not, just as a person who is heterosexual is more than their sexual desire. Nothing is said about the capacity to love, make long-term monogamous committments, and wanting a family – and why those basic human needs are not to be affirmed.Consequently, this is not about loving acceptance. It is thinly veiled tolerance – and tolerance is never a gift to the person being tolerated.

  • Tobias

    I am a gay man who has been living in a relationship for 10 years now. I find this discussion seriously lacking on both “sides”. Instead of throwing theoretical arguments and bible verses at each other I’d wish for people to actually consider why they either think living in a gay relationship is in accordance or in conflict with the Great Commandment to love God with all your heart and our neighbor as yourself.  And then I would want both sides to think about how they think we can live good lives. I.e. I would like the advocates for gay marriage to think about what gay marriage actually means and how such a relationship can express the love of God in our world and have an impact on society. And the people who think gay relationships are against the will of God should think about how they think gay people should live and how the Church can help in this. And then, most of all, this should be put into practice with the courage to make mistakes and the humility to be corrected by our experiences. All this should be a process that involves people who are actually living in this tension and not just cisgendered people thinking about those people.

  • Tobias

    I am a gay man who has been living in a relationship for 10 years now. I find this discussion seriously flawed on both “sides”. I wish that instead of theoretical arguments and quoting bible verses we would start thinking about why we believe that gay relationships are either in accordance or in contradiction to the Great Commandment to love God with all your heart and our neighbor as yourself. Then I would love to see advocates of gay marriage actually thinking about how such relationships can represent the love of God in the world and how they can be a blessing to society. And I would like the people who believe they are against the will of God to actually think about how gay people can then live good and fruitful lives and how the Church can help them with this. Then I’d like both parties to actually put all this into practice with the courage to make mistakes and the humility to learn from experience. All this should be done together with us who are actually living in this tension instead of just having cisgendered people think about us. Only in living in relationships will we learn and find answers.

  • Tobias

    Sorry for posting twice. It didn’t seem to work the first time.

  • Christine Spencer

    Verses
    for discussion

    Matthew
    22:36-40
    36
    “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
    37Jesus
    replied:“‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all
    your soul and with all your mind.’[a]38This
    is the first and greatest commandment.39And the second is like it:
    ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b]40All
    the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

    Matthew
    7:1-5
    1.
    Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2
    For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with
    the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
    3
    “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye
    and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4
    How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your
    eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5
    You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you
    will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

    1
    Timothy 4:1-7
    1The
    Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith
    and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.2Such
    teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have
    been seared as with a hot iron.3They
    forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods,
    which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who
    believe and who know the truth.4For
    everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it
    is received with thanksgiving,5because
    it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.
    6If
    you point these things out to the brothers and sisters,[a]you
    will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished on the truths of
    the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed.7Have
    nothing to do with godless myths and old wives’ tales; rather,
    train yourself to be godly.

    My
    case is this, sexually immoral actions can, in every case I have
    looked at, be shown to cause harm to your neighbor, harm to yourself,
    or harm to God when it appears in context in the Bible. (The
    exception is when things appear in lists as the lack of context makes
    it hard to know…)

    The
    problem I have is I can’t find one example of a gay or lesbian couple
    following God in the Bible. NOT ONE. Every time I see it, I see
    specific actions occurring as part of a religious ceremony,
    prostitution, rape, etc. Any of those things is ENOUGH to violate
    Matthew 23 and is easy to explain as a violation of that on its own.
    The sexuality of the people is not really relevant.

    So
    here is my problem: What do you do when someone who is in a same sex
    committed relationship standing before you looking to marry before
    God and everyone because they love each other and DON’T want to be
    sexually immoral. After all, marriage covers sexual immorality for
    straight people and is so very evident in the same sex married
    couples I know.

    When
    the fruits of the spirit are ON DISPLAY in front of you. When their
    families are so filled with the fruits of the spirit from the
    marriages? What grounds do you or I have to invalidate their
    relationship?

    Again
    I ask you, if you can find no violation of their love for God or
    eachother, can find no harm, and can clearly see the spirits, what
    grounds?

    Are
    you ready to tell them they are condemned before God? That grace
    never covers willfully doing what God forbids? Is that where
    these verses lead you?

    Not
    me. I would never dream to take an action like that.

    In
    fact, depending on how that is answered you will have two very
    different reactions. One filled with anger, strife, division, rage,
    factions, and jealousy…..or you will have a wedding filled with
    love, joy, peace, etc. Which causes GODS outcome?

    I
    will judge based on the outcomes which is of God and which is of the
    demons.

    The
    fact that the people here have suffered tremendous societal attacks
    on their character largely coming from the most religious amongst us
    only REINFORCES my belief. Surely God must be at work in it.

    The
    fact that we have testimonies from very senior (ex)-leaders in the
    ex-gay movement like Smid saying that he has never witnessed a true
    orientation change and apologizing for his part, again only
    REINFORCES my belief that we as a church have been wrong on this.

    The
    fact that recent trends indicate a growing exodus from the church
    because of this issue more so than ANY other issue particularly in
    our youth who see it AS HYPOCRASY just as it said in 1 Tim 4….again
    just reinforces my blief.

    1
    Tim 4 isn’t about in Biblical times…it says in later days….this
    would happen. I believe later days is now. I believe it’s time to
    change our beliefs to match our FAITH – because the EVIDENCE points
    to it.

    If
    we are wrong, God will show us. The fruits of the spirit will be
    self-evident. However, let me make this clear, not every
    church needs to change but the LAWS in our countries must. Our
    churches that welcome and affirm should not be JUDGED by those that
    want to hold on to the traditional understanding. As since the time
    Jesus left there is room in the church for people living under grace
    as well as those that live under grace but believe something
    different about what is right. That’s ok as long as NO HARM is done.

    No
    harm. We can do better.

    • Tobias

      Wow, Christine, thanks for these passionate words. They just really hit me in a good way! Thanks!

  • justin

    From the last paragraph: “ An awful lot of addicts I’ve known have struggled to some degree with their addictions for many years after going clean.”
    -Being gay is not an “addiction”. It is not like alcohol abuse, drug abuse, gambling..etc…if it were an addiction I believe you would see more positive results from reparative (so called) “therapy”. Even the author has doubts of people being “cured” from same sex attraction. Being gay is just innate, a part of who you are. There is no “brokenness” with me. 
    Many times Christians come at this issue with the mindset of it just being wrong. Let’s remove that stigma from it and come at it with an open mind. Then read your Bible. Then talk to you gay friend. Then read your Bible. Then talk to your gay friend. Then pray. Then think about it. Love will win out. 

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