RLC Podcast: Tony Campolo on Steve Chalke, Women Leadership and more...

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RLC Podcast: Tony Campolo on Steve Chalke, Women Leadership and more…

Posted Feb 3 2013 by RLC Editor with 16 Comments

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This week on the RLC Podcast, “Across the Pond,” Tony Campolo discusses his good friend Steve Chalke’s decision to publicly come out in favor of same-sex relationships. Steve is widely considered the “Billy Graham” of the United Kingdom with regards to his strong ties in the Evangelical community. Tony also weighs in on a new study showing the growing number of women in leadership, and on a new movement around Valentine’s Day called One Billion Rising.

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Daithi Duly

Whoa, when someone calls the atonement denying Steve Chalke “Brother” alarm bells should ring.

Chalke writing about the cross said

“The fact is that the cross isn’t a form of cosmic child abuse—a vengeful father, punishing his son for an offence he has not even committed. Understandably, both people inside and outside of the church have found this twisted version of events morally dubious and a huge barrier to faith. Deeper than that, however, is that such a construct stands in total contradiction to the statement “God is love.” If the cross is a personal act of violence perpetrated by God towards humankind but borne by his son, then it makes a mockery of Jesus’ own teaching to love your enemies and refuse to repay evil with evil. The truth is the cross is a symbol of love. It is a demonstration of just how far God as Father and Jesus as his son are prepared to go to prove that love. The cross is a vivid statement of the powerlessness of love.”

Isaiah said

But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. Isaiah 53:5

As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! Gal 1 vs 9

So if Tony and Shane call Steve a brother, then to me they show they have a different gospel.
- bluecenterlight
  
  I’m not sure that I get that he is denying the atonement from your quote. I’m not actually sure what he’s getting at. I would like to see the context, where did you find this quote?
- 22044
  
  If someone who is considered a respected preacher supports some kind of sin, there are likely bigger problems with his theology. Chalke’s quote may be indicative of that.
- Jonathan Starkey
  
  It’s not denying the atonement, It is the Christus Victor atonement view, which stands in direct contrast to Penal Substitution atonement.
  —
  - Jonathan Starkey
    
    Jesus came to reveal God’s heart of love and compassion to the broken
    and rejected. He would gain victory over sin, death, and Satan. At the cross Christ suffers with those who suffer revealing the
    compassionate love of God. (The son partnering with the Father) Love stood up to death and overcame it. He
    took on all our sin and hatefulness, died, and was risen as death was
    overcome and love was risen as victor.
    
    Evangelicals follow the Pagan/Roman understanding of the word propitiation,
    which means to placate an angry deity. To the Jews and the Eastern
    Orthodox Church the word simply refers to the mercy seat. The sacrifices
    in the O.T. were never used to appease an angry God but to cleanse one
    of one’s sin.
    - Daithi Duly
      
      All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. Ephesians 2:3
      
      For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Romans 5:10
      
      To turn the Gospel from Christ saving sinners to Christ wanting to hug everyone is awful,we were are by nature children of wrath and enemies of God. Thats what the Bible says.
      - Jonathan Starkey
        
        I think as brothers we need to try and get along despite our theories. Any atonement theory has it’s highlights and it’s down points. But the thing is we should not try to fit God into our theories and boxes.
        —
        The best way to approach the subject. Is rather than trying to fit Jesus into our 20th century theories. If you really want to get into the subject of atonement is to study. What was the thought of Pre Christ and 1 century Jews around atonement. Also, asking the question what was on Jesus mind? How did Jesus view Himself and the atonement?
        —
        Besides that these shouldn’t, as brothers, deal breaker arguments.
        —
        
        Anyway the argument is a Hot button issue like so many others. Pro Life or Pro Choice, Republican or Democrat, Calvin or Arminian, Gay Marriage No Gay marriage
        If you really feel that strongly about it. You should really dive into deeper.
      - Jonathan Starkey
        
        NT Wright, Greg Boyd (Christus Victor/Non Violent Atonement) or John Piper, Marc Driscoll (Penal Substition/ Wrath of God)?
        —
        I lean more towards NT and Greg.
        —
      - Jonathan Starkey
        
        But we need to rise above these boxes and labels.
      - daithi duly
        
        I agree that there are many things that we can have differing opinions about however when I read the Bible, it is clear that the atonement has many affects I do not deny this. My only concern is that when Steven Chalke refers to the atonement as “Cosmic Child abuse” it shows that he has clearly rejected Isaiah 53.
        
        Thanks for the conversation Jonathan, I just feel that I cannot leave myself unclear on how I view Chalkes opinions.
        
        All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right.
        
        I have to use Scripture to judge Chalke. Its clear that the jews had many different views from Christ, they rejected Him en Mass and called Him to be crucified. However the Word has made it clear Ephesians is well worth a read. The Bible says what its says, all we can do is read and submit
      - Jonathan Starkey
        
        I cam empathize with the statement that penal substitution atonement theory can be interpreted as “Cosmic Child Abuse.”
        
        There is something about this theory that doesn’t add up to who God is.
        —
        There are other verses Hebrews 1. Jesus was the exact representation/character of the Father, or God is Love. This is how we know what love (agape) is Christ died.
        
        So if he is the exact representation, and love looks like the cross. Then God looks like calvary. He looks like other centered love, dieing for many.
        
        So if the cross is the exact representation, it presents a challenge to what we think the Father looks like.
        
        Now we must read or hold these wrath verses against what the Bible also says who God is, and maybe rethink our ideas about the atonement in that light.
        
        If Jesus is the exact representation of the Father, and God is love. Then how is pouring out angry wrath fit. To many it doesn’t. You can’t have the cross like love, and this wrath like god at the same time.
        
        I mean these are the challenges.
        
        Another criticism of the penal substitution is that it kind of takes evil out of the picture. It removes Satan from the atonement, and the only one left being angry is God. So it does have the appearance of cosmic child abuse.
        
        I think why the atonement is sooo hot is because it is a core belief about God, and people believe well if you believe in a God of wrath, then you can also justify using wrath on others.
      - Jonathan Starkey
        
        Rather than if you believe in victory through nonviolence, redemption, love and resurrection power.
        —
        Liberation Theology.
      - Jonathan Starkey
        
        I also think some of the verses you labeled/highlighted could be investigated more carefully. And there have been much study as to what they mean. It is not enough to just read them literally in a vacuum.
Daithi Duly

Whoa, when someone calls the atonement denying Steve Chalke “Brother” alarm bells should ring.

Chalke writing about the cross said

“The fact is that the cross isn’t a form of cosmic child abuse—a vengeful father, punishing his son for an offence he has not even committed. Understandably, both people inside and outside of the church have found this twisted version of events morally dubious and a huge barrier to faith. Deeper than that, however, is that such a construct stands in total contradiction to the statement “God is love.” If the cross is a personal act of violence perpetrated by God towards humankind but borne by his son, then it makes a mockery of Jesus’ own teaching to love your enemies and refuse to repay evil with evil. The truth is the cross is a symbol of love. It is a demonstration of just how far God as Father and Jesus as his son are prepared to go to prove that love. The cross is a vivid statement of the powerlessness of love.”

Isaiah said

But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. Isaiah 53:5

As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! Gal 1 vs 9

So if Tony and Shane call Steve a brother, then to me they show they have a different gospel.
- bluecenterlight
  
  I’m not sure that I get that he is denying the atonement from your quote. I’m not actually sure what he’s getting at. I would like to see the context, where did you find this quote?
- 22044
  
  If someone who is considered a respected preacher supports some kind of sin, there are likely bigger problems with his theology. Chalke’s quote may be indicative of that.