The Fallacy of Statements of Faith

A while back, I was applying for an editing job with a fairly prominent Christian media company, and in the application process, I was asked to sign a statement of faith. For those unfamiliar, this is a list of things that the organization in question claims to believe, and they ask all who are interested in being a part of it to sign their name, claiming their personal agreement with and belief in the exact same things.

Truth be told, I needed the job. So even though I didn’t actually agree with several points in the statement of faith, I signed it. Turns out I didn’t get the job anyway, so I compromised myself for pretty much nothing.

I had another organization approach me recently about publishing some of my work. They’ve followed my writing for some time and thought that my content would add something valuable to their community. In most cases, when I give permission to folks to “repost” my stuff, it involves little more than a verbal agreement about what they plan to do with my articles. But this one came with two separate agreements I was asked to sign before moving forward.

There, in the middle of both agreements, were the same statements of faith, nearly mirroring word-for-word the one I had disingenuously signed the first time when the job was at stake. But this time, I thought twice about it. I wrote them and explained that, although I’d be happy to work with them, I couldn’t sign their faith doctrine agreement in good conscience.

I appreciate that some folks want to be very explicit and clear about what they believe. I also understand why those in charge of an organization would try to teach or persuade those involved with them to believe likewise.

But personally, I think the whole “sign the statement of faith” thing is more or less pointless.

For evidence of this, we don’t have to look any further than the Catholic Church, the first major institutional body of the Christian faith. A recent poll found that, despite the teachings and public positions of church leaders, a majority of Catholics not only support contraception, but also support Obama’s mandate to require employers to pay for it. Then there’s the troublemaking American nuns, getting into hot water with the male Catholic gentry for not toeing the ideological church line, particularly with regard to matters of sex and sexuality.

So if over half of the faithful openly differ with the Church, and if the hands and feet of the missional arm of the church vocally oppose the Vatican, what’s the point of the institutional doctrine to begin with?

When it comes down to it, what seems to me to be at the heart of such traditions is not so much faithfulness, but rather control. If your inclusion in a system is contingent on you conforming to the beliefs of the leadership, then that institution has the power either to coerce you into compliance or to exile you for disobedience.

But the problem is that it sets up a dynamic that actually encourages people to lie. The fact is, no institution, no matter how powerful, can indelibly change the hearts and minds of its members. They may outwardly claim uniformity, but the inner sanctuary of a human being ultimately is off limits to anyone other than God and that individual. We can use fear, punishment or even positive incentives to get people to fall into place, but there’s never any guarantee that they actually believe what we’re trying to force them to believe.

Some people proclaim the inevitable decline and death of the Emerging Christian movement. Yes, it has its flaws, and yes, in some ways it’s already started to reflect some of the dynamics it sought to subvert in existing faith institutions. But there is no statement of faith to be found, namely because there is no specific body in charge to claim such authority and control.

The day that someone tries to do that, the movement ossifies and crosses over to “institution” status.

The denomination I’m a part of, the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), has a new slogan, if you will, that some people criticize for being soft or touchy-feely. They claim is that we are “a movement for wholeness in a fragmented world.” Kinda mushy, I agree. But the word “movement” is, for me, the most important of all. We are unified by our common faith in Jesus and in our common call to justice and service in the ways that Jesus called us to serve.

But when it comes to exactly what that looks like and means for each individual, the administrative heads of the denomination are thankfully silent.

Some call that flaccid leadership, or even un-Christian. How, after all, can we be sure that the people who claim to be Disciples of Christ are, indeed, doing it right?

We can’t.

From what I can tell, Jesus never made his disciples sign a statement of faith. In fact, when his followers pressed him for more specifics on what to believe and how to act, he would tell them a story rather than nail it all down in clear terms for them.

If it’s good enough for Jesus, it’s good enough for me.

—-
Christian Piatt is an author, editor, speaker, musician and spoken word artist. He co-founded Milagro Christian Church in Pueblo, Colorado with his wife, Rev. Amy Piatt, in 2004. He is the creator and editor of BANNED QUESTIONS ABOUT THE BIBLE and BANNED QUESTIONS ABOUT JESUS. Christian’s new memoir on faith, family and parenting was released in early 2012 called PREGMANCY: A Dad, a Little Dude and a Due Date.Visit www.christianpiatt.com, or find him on Twitter or Facebook.

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About the Author

Christian Piatt

Christian PiattChristian Piatt is an author, editor, speaker, musician and spoken word artist. He co-founded Milagro Christian Church in Pueblo, Colorado with his wife, Rev. Amy Piatt, in 2004.He is the creator and editor of BANNED QUESTIONS ABOUT THE BIBLE and BANNED QUESTIONS ABOUT JESUS. Christian has a memoir on faith, family and parenting being published in early 2012 called PREGMANCY: A Dad, a Little Dude and a Due Date. Visit www.christianpiatt.com, or find him on Twitter or Facebook.View all posts by Christian Piatt →

  • http://www.facebook.com/dizzley Peter Hitchmough

    Thanks for this. I sometimes wish there were options to check beneath these statements of faith. Then I would tick “close enough”. I believe that many organisations use a statement of faith as a contractual trap which they can snap shut on those employees/members who disagree too much over some later issue – much like immigration declaration questions such as “have you ever been a member of a terrrorist organisation?” – You contradict yourself with your actions (or other evidence) and we get rid of you with impunity.

  • someguy

    Wow, so…since you admit you’re willing to compromise yourself for a job, why should we now believe anything that you write?

    • tarl_hutch

      Are you perfect then? As Jesus said, let him without sin cast the first stone. At least he is honest enough to admit to it. We need to remain loving towards our family, even when we don’t agree.

  • Morf

    Perhaps some of should come up with our own alternate ‘statements of faith’ possibly in the form of questions. Here’s my suggestion; Have you given up all, some or none of your heretical beliefs?

    • tarl_hutch

      Which beliefs would you define as heretical?

      • Anonymous

        Emerging Christians never answer questions. They only ask them.

        • tarl_hutch

          Sorry, I am kind if confused. Is this your answer or are you saying this because I asked a question?

          • Anonymous

            Sorry, I didn’t mean to confuse. I was implying that you won’t get an answer to your question.

          • tarl_hutch

            Ahhh, I see now. That is what I thought, but wanted to be sure. I would have to disagree that emergent Christians never answer, or as we usually say, respond. It is true that the emergent movement asks more questions than only answering, this is mostly due to starting conversation and causing others to think about what they believe and why.

            I have seen many responses by those speaking in the emergent church, but you will be hard pressed to get too many absolutes. This may not suit some people, but i for one value conversation and integrating the views if othera, at least where applicable. Thanks for the clarification and if you want to carry on the conversation, just let me know.

          • Anonymous

            I think you’re taking the joke a little too seriously. I can’t even get a straight answer from emergent Christians about what it means to be emergent…and believe me, I’ve tried.

          • tarl_hutch

            It means to emerge from the egg of course. Yeah, I don’t know either, sorry I missed more of the joke. Internet doesn’t translate ironic or sarcastic humor easily, or I am an idiot. Either way, answers are a lazy man’s game, questions that’s where its at.

          • Anonymous

            It’s definitely the internets.

    • Anonymous

      Catholic Baptism of Adults: Do you reject Satan, and all his works, and all his empty promises?

  • Frank

    Wow imagine the ridiculousness of expecting people to have enough integrity to define, speak and live out what they beleive. Crazy!

    • tarl_hutch

      I don’t think he is against speaking/living out one’s beliefs, but more concerned with incorporating a little leeway to include a more diverse mix of believers. Do you think we should only fellowship with people who agree with us, or is it healthy to include a range of beliefs, within reason of course?

      • Drew

        This is Satanic worship of postmodernism, Tarl. While it is healthy to include a small range of beliefs on minor issues, it is Satanic to include a large range of beliefs on major and minor issues.

        • tarl_hutch

          Which creeds or statements of faith then should be the demarcation line? Who decides which are “right” and which are “wrong”? In other words, what are the core beliefs one must have to be a “Christian”?

          • Drew

            I think it’s more important to think that it is possible to properly interpret and understand Scripture rather than to think that it is impossible to properly interpret and understand Scripture. Where is the line? I’m not sure, but it’s probably not infinite as Mr. Piatt seems to want it to be.

          • tarl_hutch

            I guess that is kind of the problem we run into, we know there must be some “right” way, but who has it and how do we determine it? I think this is why we are seeing a certain response of inclusiveness in certain sectarian of the faith community. Not for a love of postmodern or deconstructionist thought, but for a fear of pretending to have all the answers when we are still a work in progress. I would have to assume the one basic tenet we can agree on is the healing, reconstructive, sacrificial work and example of Jesus Christ being the representation of God with us. If we have faith and trust in him, then through his spirit we can work out what it means to be in His’s family.

            If we can’t for sure say what the true core beliefs are, than what other option do you suggest?

          • Drew

            Inclusivity of doctrine is a postmodernist, secular belief but not a Biblical belief, which is why it is important to read and know our Bibles.

          • tarl_hutch

            Would you care to share any solutions it would you rather continue bashing liberals and generally dodging any tough answers?

          • tarl_hutch

            Yes, I know reading the bible is part of the answer, but it is also part of the problem, be cause we can read it and come away with a different understanding. Do you have any more concrete suggestions in how to avoid falling into false ideas, or is it basically a you know them when you see them kind of thing, and you can’t share any strategies or basics with the rest of us, without seeing a case by case basis?

          • Drew

            It really starts with the Bible and reading Scripture and being obedient to Scripture. It sounds simple, but it is so crucial. I see a lot of arguments on this website made without the Bible and instead are made on the basis of political or emotional or “scientific” pleas.

            As for proper interpretation, again it is hard for me to explain, but I think reading the Bible holistically is the first step. People who throw out any part of the Bible or add to the Bible will be surprised about what Jesus has to say in Revelation. Once you read all parts of the Bible and believe in all parts of the Bible and see how the Bible fits together (not just strict predestination, not just strict free will, but how the two mesh together, for example), then you can have a better understanding.

            Have to go to work; can add more later if you want.

          • tarl_hutch

            Thanks for fleshing that out a bit more. I definitely agree that it all starts with the bible, obviously this sets us apart from other faiths and is our unique starting point. The problem arises that even without neglecting parts of scripture, we can still put the overall arch of the bible together differently. This is why I agree with you that this should be our base/core point, but still does not go far enough on helping to resolve issues of community.

            We either must follow the lead of the Moravian church by agreeing to unity in essentials, but liberty in all else, or we must firmly outline a rigid litmus test to determine the validity of ones faith. I think the conversation on thus site can help us work out the meanings of the bible in community, as long as we have reconciliation in mind.

            If you have any other thoughts or ideas on how we can include both liberal and conservative Christians in the cinversation for truth and love, I would love to hear it and thus goes for everyone here as well.

          • http://nailtothedoor.blogspot.com Dan Martin

            But @323990020a2dea16932ac0dc95c2c434:disqus, it’s equally important, if not more so, to know the difference between what the Bible actually says, and what our doctrines say about the Bible. I’ve made that a major part of my work on my own blog, which I began in large measure, not to deconstruct anybody’s faith, but to draw a bright line between Biblical exegesis (rare) and Biblical eisegesis (incredibly common) in Christian doctrine.

          • Drew

            Agreed – that is what I am saying.

      • Anonymous

        I want a fellowship of people I agree with, and debate with those who do not.

        • tarl_hutch

          You will be hard pressed to find a church full of folk who all think and believe exactly the way you do. So just practically speaking, that is not going to happen. I doubt if any two people can totally agree in everything anyway.

          Jesus calls us to fellowship with those we have differences with, which includes certain differences in belief, to learn how to love others as Jesus loved us. A huge example can be seen in the early church, Hebrew Christians and Greek Christians had to learn to compromise and live with one another. Sure they had to have Paul set them straight on certain issues, but still lefy a lot of room for grace and diversity.

          I understand your sentiment, but it will never, nor was ever intended to happen.

          • Anonymous

            I’m not hard pressed at all! Despite the liberality; I’m in a church of a Billion believers who state every Sunday that they believe as I do. BTW, you might want to look into the
            Ebionite Heresy- if you think the Hebrew Christians got along fine with the Greek Gentiles.

            I think it was intended to happen that way. But yes, schism is not something that should be taken as lightly as it often is outside of the Catholic Church, both Latin and Eastern Rites.

          • tarl_hutch

            My point, and you know it is true, that despite reciting creeds, there are multiple views and understandings nuances throughout the catholic church. You may agree with them on a good many things, but there is always at least one thing you will disagree on. This is all i am saying, that we are all different, brought togethet under Christ, and while we may want to worship with like-minded individuals, we are each unique in our understandings. This does not mean we can’t have fellowship and grow, in fact it should encourage us to live the grace of Christ in our relationships.

            I totally agree that no schism should be entered into lightly, and we have encouraged too many throughout history, but they are sometimes caused by the desire to only want to worship with people just like us.

            Thanks for the reading recommendation, it was quite interesting, though the actions of one small sect hardly seem to disprove the fact that many more learned to worship and live together. If I am missing something, please let me know.

  • http://www.fivedills.com Greg Dill

    I think Statement of Faiths are more to weed out the cults and non-orthodox organizations from infiltrating their ranks. I for one would not want to work in a church-planting organization with Jehovah Witnesses or Mormons. Statement of Faiths are a necessary evil at a time when many people and groups are deceptively calling themselves “Christian” but are far from it in both creed and deed.

    • Drew

      That’s the funny thing about wolves in sheep’s clothing… nobody will say they are the wolf. They are either so deluded that they don’t think they are a wolf, or they know they are a wolf but won’t admit to it because it’s not in their best interest.

      Statement of Faith makes people do three things – sign it because you believe, sign it and lie about it, or not sign it out of good conscience. You would hope that people who do not agree do not sign it out of good conscience, but it is not always the case.

      • tarl_hutch

        What makes a person a wolf? Is it simply espousing an opinion of scripture or doctrine you find heretical, but that they truly believe? Or is it more a person who misleads purposefully, for their own gain?

        • Drew

          That’s a false dichotomy that you should be ashamed to ask. A “wolf” can be a person who purposefully misleads but also a person who earnestly beliefs false doctrine. If you would spend more time in Paul’s letters instead of ignoring them, you would see constant pleas from Paul for all to be faithful to the doctrine in the Bible. I recommend studying the issue more. I know liberals do not like doctrine because they believe in postmodernism and want people to believe whatever they want to believe. However, the Bible is clear that these people have swerved from the faith and are generally handed over to Satan for his pleasure.

          • tarl_hutch

            I don’t know why you assume that you are the only person posting here that has read the bible. You should be ashamed to accuse me of such ignorance, as you do not know me and seem to keep missing the point.

            I am not saying statements of faith are bad, it is good to say what you believe, I am simply asking which statements are true and what do you find false? Believe it or not, I actually want to know what you think, a feeling i do not believe you share, because I want to understand how we can become a stronger community of faith. I am just asking for something deeper than accusations, I am looking for solutions. Even if we never meet we can still grow as a community of believers in discipleship.

            I know the verse you are alluding to, but do you really think God has any desire to give Satan pleasure? That seems a bit off to me.

            By the way, I have actually been defending doctrine amongst my friends, I hold it in high esteem, but I am not comfortable saying that I have it all figured out.

        • Anonymous

          One rather benign “wolf in sheeps clothing” common in more liberal Catholic Churches since the 1960s have been the type of feminist hippie suffering from Woodstockholm Syndrome that can’t bring themselves to say the Nicene Creed anymore because it refers to God as a Father instead of a Mother.

          I have several in my parish. They opposed me starting a Knights of Columbus council because it was SEXIST despite the existence of three women’s groups already.

          • tarl_hutch

            I have heard about and occasionally seen this taken to extremes in various faith communities. It can be just as in error as a strict, sexist patriarchy would be, but should cause us to ask why women would be in such opposition.

            As a church we still need to get better at fully expressing and recognising the worth of both sexes. It seems in some traditions, women have been relegated to the sidelines and are reacting in extreme manner to get their voices heard. We as men need to truly hear their voices and act to rectify any injustices that have been done towards the opposite sex. I believe if we work together on this, you will see less from the fringe groups, and have a healthier relationship between men and women of faith. We all have great ideas and strengths that God wants to use for his kingdom or kindom if you like.

            We can get too Hung up on the words we use. Referring to God as a he is no more correct than,saying she. God revealed God’s self as a he, to embody traits that cultures could understand, but is neither only male or female. Both sexes were created in God’s image, reflecting unique traits. So, we should not let the language get us down or freak out because someone says “he” or “she” for that matter.

            To me the whole “wolf’ analogy always had more of a predatory undertone, not so much a misguided one. I would have to say that I think this passage has more to do with the deliberate misleading of others, I.e. the difference between wolves and mislead sheep, than about people leading from their misguided beliefs. Think disengenuous preacher types, fleecing others of money by pretending to speak for God and less the hippy with bad theology doing drum circles and herbal healing.

          • Anonymous

            @tart_hutch: This is in a parish where the only male in the office is the priest; where there are often rallies for the Women Priest’s movement, where I was recently criticized for suggesting that perhaps killing girls in the womb was sexist, and where I’ve been called a bigot for saying that homosexuals deserve legal recognition for their relationships in civil unions but not the special recognition of the sanctity of marriage.

            In other words, the power struggle is *completely* on the other foot- the women have the only voice anybody is willing to tolerate, and if you don’t agree with them, then you’re a horrible misogynistic bigot.

            Part of the problem is I’m too young to remember when the shoe wasn’t on the other foot- I grew up in a secular rural school district that suddenly got feminist teachers of this sort in the 1970s and my total sex education was “Men are evil, they start all the wars, and all heterosexual sex is rape”.

            So in the end I see no difference between the guy preaching that if he doesn’t raise $3 million to fuel his fleet of 300 limousines God will call him home (Oral Roberts, I never wanted to give to a televangelist LESS than when I heard that one! My prayer at the time is that he wouldn’t make the deadline and God *would* call him home!) and the drum circle guy. BOTH have extremely disordered individual liberty centered theologies that have turned inward into individual selfishness.

          • tarl_hutch

            That certainly is a different situation than what you would usually see, but how and why did it happen? This is why we need truly loving and just reforms, instead of simply doing the opposite of what we were doing. Sometimes the oppressed becomes the oppressor, when the battle has been too bitter. True reconciliation is difficult to achieve, sadly enough.

            I agree that both my examples have selfish theologies if a sort, but it is more evil to consciously perpetrate sin, than to commit it unknowingly. Is this part of the mortal vs venial sin paradigm in the catholic church? I ask because my knowledge is sadly lacking on the nuances of catholicism. Thanks.

          • Anonymous

            Intention goes to culpability. The difference between a venal sin and a mortal sin is habit, not severity.

            Human acts are a spectrum from a Catholic point of view:
            1. The Act of Heroic Virtue- Done intentionally, with disregard for self, for the good of other without any concept of who the other is.
            2. The Act of Charity- Done intentionally, out of the resources God has given one, for the good of the other with some knowledge of the situation.
            3. The Act of Ordinary Virtue- done unintentionally, but with love rather than malice, without thought or spontaneously.
            4. The Act of Guiltless Sin- Done unintentionally, without knowledge or thought
            5. The Act of venal Sin- Done intentionally, in a single instance, with knowledge of the act and the typical consequences of that act
            6. The Mortal Sin- one of the seven capital sins, which venal sins can become when done under force of habit or addiction. For instance, usury as a venal sin might be taking advantage of a worker new to this country and paying them less for the labor than you would pay a citizen; the mortal sin of greed would enter in if your entire workforce was supplied by human smugglers and you were using the cost savings to grab a larger market share and put more honest employers out of work.
            7. The Unforgiveable Sin- denying the power of the Holy Spirit to protect and perfect the Church and the World, and using mortal sins to actively block the Holy Spirit.

            All sin is evil. But I’d place your hippie in level 4 and the Wealth and Health preacher in level 5. I wouldn’t consider EITHER of them guilty of moral sin, and they’re certainly not guilty of the Unforgiveable Sin. And even then, only those who have committed the unforgiveable sin are barred from seeking repentance (though I’m not sure why somebody that deep into evil would *want* to seek repentance).

            And that’s all likely as clear as mud to you- the corollary to the Americanist Heresy of Individualism is a downright binary view of virtue, sin, and guilt.

          • tarl_hutch

            Thank you for the through explanation, it is quite helpful in thus instance, though in my estimate I would put the greedy lying preacher at a 6 on the scale.

            I would be interested to hear your last paragraph fleshed out a bit more. I get the basic idea you are presenting, but would like to hear the full idea. Thanks again.

  • Drew

    I like Piatt articles because they always provoke a response. They are either amazing, thought-provoking articles that I reread multiple times or they are absolute garbage that I would not make hamster bedding with because my hamster deserves something better to live on. This article falls into the latter category.

    It’s the height of irony that you wonder why Catholics sign statement of faiths that they do not agree with… then you admit that you sign statements of faith you do not agree with! I think you solved your own riddle – sinful people will sign anything or agree to anything if they personally benefit. Piatt, don’t blame anyone for making you lie; you lied, with the help and encouragement of Satan. You were not a victim. You were the perpetrator.

    It is not about control, but rather about protecting the sheep, as Dill said. There are constantly wolves knocking at the door. Satan is everywhere and his desire is to destroy the Church and infiltrate the Church, and generally he does a pretty good job, although he will never be completely successful. My Church has members sign a statement of faith before becoming a member so apostates, secularists, non-attenders, and politicos do not infiltrate the Church and get to be in leadership positions or vote on Church issues. It’s pretty common sense.

    • Drew

      To whomever has been immediately reading my posts on RLC and immediately giving them a “thumbs down” on every single post – I am glad that your atheistic heart is bothered by what I say.

      • tarl_hutch

        It is very wrong if someone is doing that. You put a lot of time and thought in your discussion, which I appreciate, and you should not be disregarded out of hand.

      • http://www.fivedills.com Greg Dill

        Negative feedback? It’s likely because of your incessant negative rants and raves against others on RLC. Perhaps if you begin to exude a more Christ-like spirit rather than the truth-mongering fundamentalist you seem to be, maybe only then you will illicit positive responses. In the meantime, you sound like the “resounding gong” Paul speaks of 1 Corinthians 13:1.

        • Drew

          I have been getting negative feedback on even positive or neutral posts, Greg. Literally someone has been giving me a thumbs down as soon as I post on every thread no matter the content. Honestly, I feel bad for the person, giving me a thumbs down every time they see my name no matter the content.

          I do post positive comments. In fact, I have almost always posted positive comments on your blogs and when you leave comments in the comment section. In fact, I checked out your website and your Church based on your blog postings and found them both to be pretty neat. It seems like your Church would be considered very conservative as compared to this website. I would go back and read how I have responded to your blogs and to what you have said.

          • http://www.fivedills.com Greg Dill

            Drew – Conservative or not, we must always exude the spirit of Christ in our speech. I have looked over the past few article posts on RLC and it seems all of your posts are negative or bashing liberals. I myself am conservative on a handful of fundamentals, but liberal on secondary issues. Does this make me “bad”? I understand your passion for truth, but not at the expense of love. I humbly encourage you to work on that. Take it from someone who has had to learn to season his own voice with grace.

            Peace.

          • Drew

            To be crystal clear, I don’t mind getting negative feedback. What I specifically meant is that within minutes of every single time I post, I get one thumbs down. One person has literally been reading the website within ten minutes of all my posts just to give me a thumbs down. It’s pretty strange.

            As I said, if you read my comments to you and my comments on your blogs, they have been almost all positive. I think we had one disagreement on salvation, but I started coming around to your point (imagine that). If you read my posts in general, they are generally critical but there are a good amount of positive ones. My one on the breaking news immigration issue was positive. Also, most of Jenny Rae Armstrong’s posts I am positive on as well. I am generally critical of Piatt, I will admit.

            As for your response, it was a bit judgmental, don’t you think? I’m not a fundamentalist nor do I attend a fundamentalist Church. If you want the denomination I can send you an e-mail and tell you about it. They signed the recent Immigration Reform document, the same one that Sojourners and others signed. I am also not a political conservative; I am a moderate or liberal. When I talk about liberals, it is in the context of those in Christianity who seek to water down and liberalize doctrine and universalize it.

            Am I too unloving at times? Possibly, and I will continue to work on it. However, it is difficult to see a movement that I identify be hijacked by extreme liberalism. Whereas the founder is fairly conservative, most posts and posters are extremely liberal and are using this site as a liberal hideout to test new liberal doctrines or theories. Truth be told, I will probably stop visiting the site if the articles continue to be from an extreme liberal viewpoint and just follow the few individuals I do enjoy reading, like Armstrong for example.

          • http://www.fivedills.com Greg Dill

            It’s my guess that the person going around immediately giving you a thumbs down is likely someone you pissed off with your negative remarks. Hopefully, that will stop. Perhaps a public apology is in order? I don’t know.

            Judgmental? No. It was more of an observation based on your remarks. Your remarks very much have a fundamentalist/conservative bent to them (i.e. liberals, satanic, heretic, wolves, etc). I make no apologies for my rebuke. I appreciate your positive comments. But, often negative criticism outweighs the positive remarks.

            Again, I say this with the fact that I too have struggled with this. I have since asked forgiveness from others and I am now careful about negatively criticizing my liberal or conservative brothers in Christ.

            Just an FYI, if you do your homework you will find that conservative theology has hijacked Christianity too. The Health, Wealth, and Prosperity gospel, dispensationalism, Christian Zionism, biblicism, and much more. No theology is perfect. And, it’s only when we remove ourselves from conservative or liberal labels, and read Scripture through the lens of Christ, with no agenda, or set of theological beliefs in mind that we can begin to grow more in our faith.

            Peace, my friend.

          • Drew

            Well, your observation was completely false about me being a fundamentalist and made rather hastily by only looking at a few discussions. If it makes you feel better to retrench and defend, rather than to admit you were wrong, then continue to do so; I will understand. It seems like you might have a few specks in your eye as well, Greg.

            Greg, I have done my homework. Again, you are foolish and incorrect to think I am a fundamentalist or come from such an extreme viewpoint that I cannot see the other side’s argument. I fully acknowledge that extreme liberalism and extreme conservatism in so much as they stray from the Bible are a danger. I am not a fundamentalist nor do I attend a fundamentalist Church or denomination. I strongly disagree with the Health/Wealth/Prosperity Gospel and do not attend such a Church or denomination. I strongly disagree with dispensationalism and do not attend such a Church or denomination.

            My comments skew the way they do because it is generally a very liberal website, with some individuals pushing the limits of liberalism past what is real Christanity. If this website ever did run conservative posts that pushed the boundaries, then I would respond the same way, and to some “conservative” comments that have seemed to push the limits of Christianity, I have responded to them critically (again, if you read all the discussions, just not a few).

      • http://nailtothedoor.blogspot.com Dan Martin

        @323990020a2dea16932ac0dc95c2c434:disqus, so anyone who disagrees with you is an atheist? Wow…

        • Drew

          Not at all what I meant or said; please read the rest of the discussion.

  • Mike Ward

    My wife and I are Protestants. We looked into a preschool which while not a afiliated with any particular denomincation was Protestant. To send our son there either I or my wife would have had to have signed a statement of faith which I was not willing to sign. So we checked out a Catholic preschool. Even though we aren’t Catholic, they didn’t care, and they didn’t ask us to sign statements of faith so now our son is enrolled in a Catholic preshool.

    • Anonymous

      The only time you’ll run into a Catholic statement of faith as a lay person is in the middle of Mass. We run schools, hospitals and soup kitchens because *WE* are Catholic, not because the people we serve are.

  • http://www.facebook.com/paul.petersen.507 Paul Petersen

    There can be value in a Statement of Faith, but both parties have to be honest with each other about it. For example: I teach the college class in our very, very conservative church. The church elders (of which I’ve been one) want to know that their teachers basically agree with the church’s teaching points and Statement of Faith in the church. I’m good with that. But there are a couple of points which I don’t agree with, so I told the church which points I disagree on. I also said that, if it comes to teaching one of these points, I’ll give the full biblical arguments for both the church’s position, and any counterpositions. Our church leaders were comforatable with that, and I’ve been teaching for the better part of 10 years now.
    If the church wanted to use the SoF as a control mechanism, they could’ve booted me from teaching long ago — or never let me start. I’m thankful for the unity in “major” issues, while allowing for open discourse on the “non-essentials”.

  • http://twitter.com/amyunchained Amy Mitchell

    Yes, this explains exactly why I never joined a Christian homeschool group when we were home educators. I would have had to sign a statement of faith with which I didn’t agree. I signed the membership agreement at my church primarily because I agree with its statements and because it isn’t highly specific. But I’ve also seen it used to control and instill fear, because the language is so nebulous that it can be “interpreted” based on what behaviors leadership wants to control. In my case, I was asked not to discuss certain ways in which I disagree with church doctrine because it’s “important” that I show solidarity. Implied was that I would be leading others astray. I made it clear that as long as the person to whom I’m speaking is an adult, I will not keep silent. I am still within the actual terms of the agreement I signed, and even if it were legally binding they would lose on that one. I won’t play those games.

  • Anonymous

    I’ve never been asked to sign a statement of faith. I don’t think I’ve even attended a church that required one. To me, it all depends on how detailed they are. I don’t think asking someone to affirm, for example, the Nicene Creed, before taking a leadership position in a church is asking too much. Making sure they have the “correct” view on non-integral things like whether infant baptism is okay, or what the book of Revelation means, or women in the priesthood is taking things too far. Churches should be as “big tent” as possible without compromising their mission.

    • Anonymous

      Sam, to a Catholic, women in the priesthood is pretty integral, because Jesus was a man.

      • Anonymous

        Yes, it would be, I presume. But we’re talking about protestant, evangelical organizations here for the most part that require statements of faith. As you note below, Catholics aren’t big on statements of faith outside the basic creeds, which is a good thing, in my mind.

        Is the Catholic position that only men can serve in the priesthood really based on the fact that Jesus was a man? I thought it was something else.

        • Anonymous

          It is a bit more than that, but not much. It’s also that the 12 Apostles were men. Christ choose men, the enter concept of Apostolic Authority rests on the Apostles following in Christ’s footsteps, and thus we have the separation of clerical duties between women and men (I know enough history to know that Hans Kung was actually right about female deaconesses both in the Bible and later- but every record I can find lists their duties as VASTLY different; the feminist complaint about men eating the meal while women were only fit to set the table does have a point).

          One way to think of the Catholic Mass is as a dramatic representation of the Eternal Sacrifice from the Apocalypse of John (Book of Revelations in English), with the priest playing 3 different roles: As an Apostle, teaching the faith to the people, as Vicarious Christi, in the role of Christ at the last Supper, and as God the Father himself, giving us a glimpse of the afterlife of heaven.

          NONE of these roles make sense theologically with a woman playing the role.

          Of course, most postmodern feminists- even those within the Church- claim this is utter nonsense because men and women are 100% the same and completely interchangeable and gender doesn’t matter. I usually then proceed to ask them if they’ve ever seen a man give birth (well, who wasn’t just a surgically altered woman, anyway).

  • rick dancer

    Oswald Chambers says:

    “Jesus did not say to make converts
    to your way of thinking, but He said to look after His sheep, to see that they
    get nourished in the knowledge of Him. We consider what we do in the way of
    Christian work as service, yet Jesus Christ calls service to be what we are
    to Him, not what we do for Him. Discipleship is based solely on devotion
    to Jesus Christ, not on following after a particular belief or doctrine.”

  • rick dancer

    Oswald Chambers says:

    “Jesus did not say to make converts
    to your way of thinking, but He said to look after His sheep, to see that they
    get nourished in the knowledge of Him. We consider what we do in the way of
    Christian work as service, yet Jesus Christ calls service to be what we are
    to Him, not what we do for Him. Discipleship is based solely on devotion
    to Jesus Christ, not on following after a particular belief or doctrine.”

    I would have a real problem signing a document of faith for any church.

  • http://nailtothedoor.blogspot.com Dan Martin

    One might even suggest that Jesus *did* endorse a statement of faith of sorts, but it’s way simpler than those of modern churches. It’s found in Mark 12:29-31. You might find my own Word About Creeds resonates somewhat with your experience. I actually have been denied a job with a mission organization over my inability to sign their statement of faith, so I sympathize with your point. Thanks for putting this out there.

  • Jer

    I have never had to sign a Statement of Faith in my several years of interning for my church (one of the largest protestant denominations) but I have had to sign religonized covenants of conduct (no drugs, sex, porn, etc on site). You said that these statements are about control, but I disagree. They can be about ORDER too, as in the opposite of chaos. In the facebook era where everyone has a variant opinion and claims to be the one with the correct opinion, I see SoF as a means to affirm corporate identity. We are not the borg collective (star trek reference) but a family which agrees to stay together through diversity. Loosen up on the individualism, dude.

  • http://www.facebook.com/ruthann.raycroft RuthAnn Raycroft

    I was asked to sign a SoF when I went to work for a large para-church organization. In my case, I wish the SoF had been more detailed, so I could have been prepared for the morning devotions a year later where I was asked to pray for a politcal figure (in another country!!) doing something I found reprehensible–all because the man happened to be a member of a political party that claims to have the corner on Christianity. When I pointed out to my employer that to ask me to do something like this was if not a violation of labour practices then at least ethically questionable, I was informed that this political stance/party/individual was just a part of what the organization supported. Got out as fast as I could.

  • Anonymous

    Three things I as a Catholic would point out:
    1. The Catholic “Statement of Faith” is and always has been the Nicene Creed. You’ll notice that abortion, euthanasia, war, poverty, and the death penalty are strangely missing from it. That’s because those are things the Church asks us to INFORM OUR CONSCIENCES about, not believe blindly (never mind the fact that the Church’s arguments are so persuasive that every Cafeteria Catholic I’ve ever met has failed the informed part of that test- they fail to believe out of ignorance, not malice).

    2. A similar flaw exists in that “the majority of Catholic Women use Contraception” study- when you dig into the sample, you’ll find they only interviewed women who, at some point in their lives, had extra-marital sex. So it’s really “A 98% majority of Catholic Women who at One Point in Their Lives Did Not Understand The Virtue of Chastity, Used Contraception”, which I’d count as a major win for the Church’s rather nuanced teaching on the subject- that even those who *didn’t understand it* still took enough responsibility to use contraception when they choose the secular way instead.

    3. The point of institutional doctrine isn’t to have everybody follow it. The point of institutional doctrine is to consistently present an ideal from those who teach in the name of the institution. That’s why- despite 40 years worth of complaints against the nuns- it took a single sister writing a book promoting gay marriage and rejecting heterosexuality and then trying to sell that book in Ireland, for the Vatican to do anything about the complaints at all- and even then the great “supression” of the nuns really just amounts to “Don’t invite this sister, or anybody else who doesn’t agree with the Magisterium, to your leadership conference to preach against dogma and doctrine”. If the LCWR can’t live up to at least that, then yes, they need to be no longer a part of the institution, and nuns will have to find some other, more Orthodox, labor union to join.

    • Anonymous

      Thanks. Makes sense to me.

  • Anonymous

    Having encountered an insurmountable hurdle in the form of a faith statement with one Evangelical organization once before, I first thought I could relate to Christian Piatt’s experience. But having also now chosen to be Catholic, I was disturbed by the turn this article took into uncharitable misunderstandings of what being Catholic means. It’s certainly not about coercion, which was clearly rejected in Vatican II’s Declaration on Religious Liberty. This document and others like it are themselves evidence that formal doctrine is not simply about control, and the same can be said for the whole social tradition of the Catholic Church.

    I entered the Catholic Church not as an unthinking cog in a cold rigid machine, but as one of many voices in a living conversation. It would be impossible for every Catholic to fully agree with absolutely everything promulgated by Church hierarchy (or to dishonestly pretend to), and that is not what’s asked of us. This misconception is contradicted by Piatt’s own examples of Catholics disagreeing with Church teachings, although he presents these examples in a somewhat oversimplified way. In any case, such examples show that the dynamic created by doctrinal Church tradition is not one of coercion or exile, blind uniformity or dishonesty, but rather of loyal dissent: the very Catholic (though often subconscious) habit of sticking with the Church despite disagreement.

    Although “institution” has become something of a dirty word in our postmodern zeitgeist, I’ve been thinking for a few years about how institutions and movements need each other. Historically, every counter-institutional movement must eventually either become institutional itself or die out. I am not nearly as sure as I would once have been that this is necessarily a bad thing. After all, to assume that the Holy Spirit can only work outside of institutions is just as limiting as the inverse assumption that the Spirit can only work within them. Some form of institutional structure is both inevitable and necessary, and at the same time, every institution (the Church most of all) needs its renewal movements to keep it accountable to its own values.

    That said, I actually like the focus of the denominational slogan. The word in it that most appeals to me personally is “holistic” – which in fact is pretty close to the meaning of the word “Catholic”.

    • tarl_hutch

      Well said. Thank you for adding your voice of clarity and love. Love the handle, by the way.

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