Why Christians Shouldn’t Be Offended By So-Called “Socialism”

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Why Christians Shouldn’t Be Offended By So-Called “Socialism”

Posted Jul 8 2012 by Morgan Guyton with 115 Comments

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In a recent interview with George Stephanopoulos, Congressman Paul Ryan said that he had a basic philosophical difference with the Democrats: he believes that rights come from God while they think rights come from the government. Setting aside the question of whether this distinction is fair, I think it captures the source of the visceral rage of Teavangelicals who have made Paul Ryan their hero. They have defined their battlefield as a contest between Christianity and secular humanism, God vs. government. Government support programs for the poor have to be wasteful, enabling, and unfair, or else God would lose His relevance. While I understand this fear, it’s very problematic from a Biblical perspective.

God cares immensely whether or not our society takes care of its most vulnerable members and whether it provides a means for kids growing up in disadvantage to have an equal opportunity to succeed. If all people are indeed “created equal and endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights,” then any politician who fears God should create laws that respect what God desires for the widows and orphans He loves. I have seen a lot of hysteria being posted by Christians online in reaction to the health care ruling and election year politics. I wanted to share several reasons I don’t see any Christian basis for being offended by the “socialism” so many Christians express their outrage about.

1) We’re supposed to be saved from meritocracy

The most fundamental concept of evangelical Christianity is the doctrine of justification by faith. Our salvation is not something we can earn, but only receive as a gift. Ephesians 2:8-9 provides the best summary of this concept: “It is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.” We are supposed to be transformed by the gift of God’s grace; it’s supposed to start a chain reaction of grace in how we treat other people. God forgives our trespasses so that we will forgive those who trespass against us. Jesus’ message in the parable of the unmerciful servant in Matthew 18:21-35 is that receiving mercy from God and refusing to show mercy to others means rejecting God’s mercy.

When I truly experience the complete deliverance of Christ, I come to see every aspect of my life as a gift. Having a job is a gift; being able to pay my bills is a gift; having the knowledge and skills to acquire a job is a gift. If I am mistreated, that too is a gift for the sake of my spiritual refinement. Living under grace means being liberated from meritocracy in which I think in terms of what I deserve or earn. God’s grace is supposed to set me free from a slavish devotion to making sure that I’m always treated fairly and raising a fuss if I suspect anyone of receiving a benefit they didn’t earn.

People who get incensed about having to pay taxes for programs that help poor people who “don’t deserve help” reveal that they are still slaves to the meritocracy Jesus died to save them from. As Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 4:7, “What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?” Everything we have is a gift from God. Nothing is our property; we are only stewards of God’s property. It is reasonable to have genuine stewardship concerns about how the government spends God’s money, but any argument based on meritocracy itself has no place in Christian discourse.

2) God can use the government to accomplish His purposes

A lot of Teavangelicals make the argument that they have no problem helping the poor; they just want it to happen through their local megachurch and not the government. But according to the Bible, God doesn’t have a problem using government to take care of the people He wants to provide for. Paul explains in Romans 13:6, “The authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. Give to everyone what you owe them.” God has always worked through people and processes who don’t acknowledge His sovereignty, even a brutal pagan government like the Roman Empire. God is not in competition with any government; God rules over all governments.

When we get bent out of shape about our taxes being involuntary unlike the church offering plate and distributing our money in ways that we cannot personally oversee, then our concern is about our individual sovereignty and not God’s. What right do we have to tell God He can’t bless a single mother who’s been crying out to Him for help through the WIC or SNAP food assistance programs because we want to be the ones who hand her a bag of groceries? It is indeed a greater blessing to participate in hands-on, relational missions than to just write a check for somebody else to do the work, but God is not beholden to our need for “the right hand to know what the left hand is doing” (Matthew 6:3) as He decides how to provide for His widows and orphans.

3) The market is no less vulnerable to idolatry and corruption than the state

Our Cold War legacy is the only explanation I can find for the way that Americans see the market as “Christian” and the state as “atheist.” There is nothing inherently Christian about capitalism, though when capitalism works well, it’s because Christian values have restrained capitalists from abandoning themselves completely to greed. This restraint hasn’t seemed to take place recently, at least not in the financial sector. In 2008, we learned that if people can get away with calling lies “financial instruments,” then they will do so to make money. It baffles me why Teavangelicals continue to maintain that the market always knows best, but then consider any “government official” to be suspicious at best and utterly diabolical at worst.

Several members of my congregation work for government agencies. Some really enjoy their jobs and seem to have an opportunity to be effective; others are getting crushed by the pressure to produce results that fit into political “talking points” rather than dealing honestly with whatever is in front of them. I can understand the rationale for believing that a for-profit corporation will be more attentive to troubleshooting its productivity. But this is different than trusting the free market itself to behave like “nature” and provide the basis for a nation’s social equilibrium on its own.

Since Charles Darwin’s Origin of Species, Western culture has been caught in a fierce debate over what counts as “natural.” Christians affirm that nature is God’s creation and that its equilibrium and order exist because God made nature that way. According to the Christian perspective,the created order was shattered when the primordial humanity represented by Adam and Eve deviated from God’s perfect equilibrium to act according to their self-interest for the first time. In contrast, the Darwinian perspective affirms not merely that life developed over the course of billions of years but that there has been no creator overseeing the development of life. Self-interest, rather than being a rebellion against God’s equilibrium, is the basis for natural equilibrium in the doctrine of survival of the fittest.

The free market is the space created in the human community by billions of acts of self-interest. Every time a person is restrained from acting in self-interest whether by government regulations or their own internal moral reservations, they are “corrupting” the purity of the market. It makes sense to embrace the market as “natural” if we have accepted the Darwinian vision for life and understand rational self-interest as the highest moral virtue, in accordance with the teachings of Paul Ryan’s favorite atheist philosopher Ayn Rand. Trusting the self-interest of millions of investors to “naturally” come up with a just solution for people without health insurance, for example, means subscribing to Darwin’s understanding of nature instead of Genesis. To say that the market needs no regulation is no less bold a claim than saying that the world doesn’t need God.

Conclusion

Please recognize what I have said and haven’t said. There are legitimate arguments to be made against Obamacare and any number of other political issues. But we misrepresent Christ when our arguments are based on meritocracy or the assumption that the free market is “Christian” while government-based solutions are “secular humanist.” I would much rather see solutions for poverty emerge on a local grassroots level through authentic community-building relationships. As a Christian pastor, I would much rather see people provided for both materially and spiritually as one package in the kingdom of God. But regarding those aspects of human need like health care and housing that require greater resources than even large megachurches can muster, I don’t see why Christians should fight tooth and nail to prevent God from using our secular government to provide for these needs.

—-
Morgan Guyton is the associate pastor of Burke United Methodist Church in Burke, Virginia, and a Christian who continues to seek God’s liberation from the prison of self-justification Jesus died to help him overcome. Morgan’s blog “Mercy Not Sacrifice” is located at http://morganguyton.wordpress.com. Follow Morgan on twitter at www.twitter.com/maguyton.

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About the Author

Morgan GuytonMorgan Guyton is the associate pastor of Burke United Methodist Church in Burke, Virginia, and a Christian who continues to seek God’s liberation from the prison of self-justification Jesus died to help him overcome. Morgan’s blog “Mercy Not Sacrifice” is located at http://morganguyton.wordpress.com. Follow Morgan on twitter at www.twitter.com/maguyton.View all posts by Morgan Guyton →

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http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000699994198 David Reynolds

I love this piece. Well thought through and a nice counter to much of the vitriol that is out there right now. It’s also encouraging to hear that there are other well thought through Christians out there who are thinking this way.
Thanks for making the time to pen it.
http://www.facebook.com/kvestal Kathy Vestal

a refreshing and intelligent voice
http://aredemptionofhope.blogspot.com Ally C

Good thoughts, Morgan- as always. Your second point is one we need to remember as we move toward election time. i might add that in a country as large as ours, it would be impossible to rely on church (or synagogue or mosque) networks to provide for the lower class. Even were everyone to give at least 10%, a church simply isn’t set up to handle these sorts of social problems on a mass level, like a government is. Thanks for your thoughts on this.
- Anonymous
  
  Ally,
  If there are enough resources at the government’s disposal to “provide for the lower class” there’s enough resources for anyone to do it. It’s simply a matter of how to convince enough people to have compassion on those in need.
  - Drew
    
    I could be wrong, but I do not know of even one Christian denomination that surpasses 5% giving per member, and the average is 2.43% giving per member. It’s not a matter of how to convince enough people to have compassion on those in need, because God and the Holy Spirit cannot even convict them to do so.
    - Anonymous
      
      Drew,
      Surely you don’t believe that because people aren’t doing something now means mean it’s impossible to convince them it’s the right thing to do sometime in the future. And I’m not just talking about churches. There’s plenty of wealth out there and I think people’s spirits are willing, they just don’t know what to do. We need to think bigger.
      - tarl_hutch
        
        That is the million dollar question, how do we make people care? Is it even possible? I would have to say all things are possible with God, but we need to be open to the correct path he is calling is towards. This is why we have this discussion, how do we set up a system that is fair, allows for upwards mobility and God’s blessings, while helping others and staying true to our country’s heritage and ideas?
        
        Rambling again, sorry, but let’s figure out how do this.
      - Drew
        
        As I just responded to Sam a few minutes ago, we should act like we can make all people care but realize that we won’t make all people care… same thing goes for salvation.
      - Drew
        
        As I just responded to Sam a few minutes ago, we should act like we can make all people care but realize that we won’t make all people care… same thing goes for salvation.
      - Drew
        
        As I just responded to Sam a few minutes ago, we should act like we can make all people care but realize that we won’t make all people care… same thing goes for salvation.
      - Anonymous
        
        I’m not opposed to the federal government getting involved, I just don’t like the defeatism of “poverty is too big a problem for the church so let’s outsource it to an impersonal government incapable of love.”
      - Anonymous
        
        I’m not opposed to the federal government getting involved, I just don’t like the defeatism of “poverty is too big a problem for the church so let’s outsource it to an impersonal government incapable of love.”
      - Anonymous
        
        I’m not opposed to the federal government getting involved, I just don’t like the defeatism of “poverty is too big a problem for the church so let’s outsource it to an impersonal government incapable of love.”
      - tarl_hutch
        
        That is the million dollar question, how do we make people care? Is it even possible? I would have to say all things are possible with God, but we need to be open to the correct path he is calling is towards. This is why we have this discussion, how do we set up a system that is fair, allows for upwards mobility and God’s blessings, while helping others and staying true to our country’s heritage and ideas?
        
        Rambling again, sorry, but let’s figure out how do this.
      - tarl_hutch
        
        That is the million dollar question, how do we make people care? Is it even possible? I would have to say all things are possible with God, but we need to be open to the correct path he is calling is towards. This is why we have this discussion, how do we set up a system that is fair, allows for upwards mobility and God’s blessings, while helping others and staying true to our country’s heritage and ideas?
        
        Rambling again, sorry, but let’s figure out how do this.
      - Drew
        
        Sam,
        
        Jesus wants all people to be saved, but is brutally honest that all people will not be saved. Jesus even says that towards the end times that most hearts will go cold.
        
        Same thing with giving. Jesus wants all people to give, but is brutally honest that all people will not give. That is why Jesus spent so much time on the subject, why Paul said love of money is the root of all kinds of evil, ect.
        
        I’m all for what you are saying. There is a ridiculous amount of wealth out there in the world. If America tithed, we’d probably solve most of the world’s problems by ourselves. However, we are fighting human nature here.
      - Anonymous
        
        And I get what you’re saying Drew. I just don’t like the defeatism of “Well, the church isn’t doing a good job at the moment (or our country is too big for the church to do it) so that means the federal government must do it.” I’d say the church is hardly trying. How much time is devoted at the average church to even talking about how to help the poor?
      - Anonymous
        
        And I get what you’re saying Drew. I just don’t like the defeatism of “Well, the church isn’t doing a good job at the moment (or our country is too big for the church to do it) so that means the federal government must do it.” I’d say the church is hardly trying. How much time is devoted at the average church to even talking about how to help the poor?
      - Anonymous
        
        And I get what you’re saying Drew. I just don’t like the defeatism of “Well, the church isn’t doing a good job at the moment (or our country is too big for the church to do it) so that means the federal government must do it.” I’d say the church is hardly trying. How much time is devoted at the average church to even talking about how to help the poor?
      - Drew
        
        Sam,
        
        Jesus wants all people to be saved, but is brutally honest that all people will not be saved. Jesus even says that towards the end times that most hearts will go cold.
        
        Same thing with giving. Jesus wants all people to give, but is brutally honest that all people will not give. That is why Jesus spent so much time on the subject, why Paul said love of money is the root of all kinds of evil, ect.
        
        I’m all for what you are saying. There is a ridiculous amount of wealth out there in the world. If America tithed, we’d probably solve most of the world’s problems by ourselves. However, we are fighting human nature here.
  - Jennifer A. Nolan
    
    Bleah! The Feds and the big corporations (especially the latter) are taking more and more of the general weatth of this nation and putting it into special-interest causes like planes that don’t fly and tax breaks for Verizon. Except as a voter, I refuse to be held responsible for this situation; either the needs of those, like me, who work but don’t see the fruits of their labors, are worth some major intervention on the part of government or other large entities, or they’re NOT. But don’t ask people like ME to pony up! More and more of us are tapped out — and that is a problem that cries out for answers in itself. What’s your answer??
Anonymous

Morgan makes good points here. As he notes at the end, this says nothing about whether federal government programs are the best way to assist the poor and others, only that they don’t inherently go against God’s plan. I agree completely. I also agree that the free market is not Christian.

But I also feel like there’s a little switch going on here. Morgan writes that Rep. Ryan believes the distinction between Rs and Ds is that Rs believe “that rights come from God while [Ds] think rights come from the government.” Again, leaving aside whether this is a fair characterization, this is an entirely different discussion than “the free market is ‘Christian’ while government-based solutions are ‘secular humanist.’” Ryan is talking about basic rights while Morgan is talking about how to apportion scarce resources. I don’t believe Ryan was saying that the free market is Christian. He was saying that our rights come from God.
Matt

Do you want to know why I’m afraid of socialism? Because it does not and has not and will not ever work. Will someone, anyone, please provide an actual historical example of socialism or any form of leftist thought actually working.
In your diatribe above, you offer zero (let me count again, yep, zero) examples of any successes of socialism working. I can run down the laundry list of failed leftist programs again, I’d rather not, but I can if you would like me to.
Bottomline, leftist philosophy is based on the idea that you are smarter than I am therefore you must tell me how to live my life and if I don’t listen, then you will codify how I must live my life through regulations and laws. And in the midst of your power grab you always claim that you are helping others (in this case, you claim that God is helping others through you taking my freedom). Your “helping” creates dependency and goes against every single freakin’ basic tenet of economics not to mention human nature as described in the Bible.
I don’t want to say that leftists are stupid, but come on, if the shoe fits, right? You guys aren’t exactly using your brain here. If you say you want to help people, then why not acknowledge reality and conduct yourself in a way that is proven, by historical example over and over again, that actually helps other people. Here’s the secret, to acknowledge reality would be to admit that you are not any better than any other person and you definitely don’t know what is better for anyone else’s life. Therefore, to acknowledge reality would mean you would have to shut up and quite spouting off nonsense and get out of people’s way instead of creating more dependency and calling it mercy.
This crap posted on this blog is so hysterically absurd its sad. I truly feel sorry for those who have to go through life without realizing they don’t have to be stupid if they don’t want to be. Sorry for the harsh tone, but everything in that post is so un-Christian and un-American it kind of ticked me off.
- http://www.facebook.com/otro.tierra Otro Tierra
  
  Why is Jesus missing in your comments?
- http://aredemptionofhope.blogspot.com Ally C
  
  …because Europe is a fantasy land, huh?
  (and because i’m sure you’ll bring it up– there’s more to European socialism than Greece and there’s more to Greece’s problems than European socialism)
  - Matt
    
    That’s fine if you want to be Europe. I want to be a fearsome, powerful force for good in the world. Europe can’t even defend themselves. Some model of excellence there.
    - Anonymous
      
      How does wanting to be “fearsome” match up with Christianity? Isn’t a “powerful force of good” more believable when that force has a reputation of treating people fairly no matter their circumstances including enemies? Micah tells us that that Lord requires of us to “To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” Jesus tells us to love our enemies and pray for those that persecute us. Even in Leviticus God told harvesters to leave extras in the corner of their fields for the poor. You claim that everything in the post un-Christian but failed to state how except to repeat political talking points. Politics aside, what does the word of God say that contradicts Morgan’s article?
    - Anonymous
      
      How does wanting to be “fearsome” match up with Christianity? Isn’t a “powerful force of good” more believable when that force has a reputation of treating people fairly no matter their circumstances including enemies? Micah tells us that that Lord requires of us to “To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” Jesus tells us to love our enemies and pray for those that persecute us. Even in Leviticus God told harvesters to leave extras in the corner of their fields for the poor. You claim that everything in the post un-Christian but failed to state how except to repeat political talking points. Politics aside, what does the word of God say that contradicts Morgan’s article?
- tarl_hutch
  
  Matt,
  I am not totally disagreeing with you here, but as a very moderate person I would like to hear more about your suggestions for alternate solutions to these issues.
  
  I think what the author is trying to acknowledge and what has angered you, is the fact that the very word “socialism” brings up so many extreme ideas. I am not for a full on socialism, but you must acknowledge how America has relied on some “socialist lite” programs throughout modern history. Which have ranged from moderate success to epic failure. But there is a difference between capital Socialism and lowercase socialism. I fir one am proud we have a government that can give voice to multiple viewpoints so we can, in theory, make well rounded compromises and laws. Does this always happen? No, and it is our fault for buying inti extremist politucs on both sides, causung politicians to play it safe to get reelected. That is how any of us act stupidly, and it must stop if we hope to move forward.
  
  As it is a huge portion of our faith and the teachings if Jesus, we must take care of others, strangers, orphans, widows, etc. Which as everyone here has pointed out can be done personally and governmentaly. This is why I want to know what direction you think we should go. I am big into our personal liberty and for justice for all, so how do we do this in the world?
  
  Teaser: I do think that there should be a greater focus on training and equipping people to get off assistance, but we should not do away with safety nets, unless you know anything better.
  
  I look forward to your thoughts, but I do think you might be heard clearer with a more civil tone. I know that is tough when you are passionate and want to make an impact, but in the best interest of discussion we have to try and keep it respectful, or else we just end up insulting each other and going nowhere. Thanks again.
  - Matt
    
    Solution: Free Market solutions unhindered by regulations. Make people take care of themselves and support the poor through the wealth generated by private individuals through their own giving and the church. Taking my money and giving it to the poor through redistribution by the government is not progress. Its lunacy. Its a practical solution that lets mankind maintain its dignity and supports actual growth.
    - Anonymous
      
      Sounds like the market is your god.
      - Matt
        
        Sounds like Karl Marx is yours. At least my “god” is productive
    - tarl_hutch
      
      I, like many others, would love to see this solution taken up by individuals and churches, but I am not sure how to convince others to voluntarily help support the least of these. In our churches and others of similar morals, we should be doing this already, but how do we convince others, notably followers of Ayn Rand’s philosophies, that it is worthwhile to help others.
      
      This seems to be the reason that most governments feel the need to step in and do it themselves. We know there must be a better way, but how do we encourage others to embrace it?
      
      I am also a bit curious how free market philosophies would deal with these issues? Even non profits are reliant on government assistance, through grants and tax breaks, to stay afloat. Is this because people are less likely to give when government programs exist or because people are just more likely not to give? When did we forget that personal responsibility and liberty, also means being willing to help others have their liberty and even a helping hand? Our grandparents knew this, when did we forget?
      
      It still amazes me how we resort to accusatory statements when politics is involved. We all throw around comnents about worshipping the market or marx or whatever, when we know that is not true. We may have different ideas about how to reach conclusions, but our desired outcomes are basically the same. It disappoints me that we can’t seem to stand to talk without getting pissed off. We have got to learn.
      - Matt
        
        Imagine I’m writing this in all caps for emphasis. It is not the government’s job, my employer’s job, my neighbor’s job, the stranger on the subway’s job, or anyone else’s job to provide for my well-being except for myself. Likewise, no one, especially not my government knows what is best for my life and the lives of my loved ones.
        That being said, it is not our job to convince the followers of Ayn Rand’s philosophy (I love her, by the way) to give anything. That is not our place as the Church or as Christians. It is the Church’s place and individual Christians, through a God-given spirit of selflessness and giving to provide for the least of these. I just hope the Church can adopt sound economic principles while they do so. To me, it almost seems like a lack of faith that we have to call upon the government to provide because we don’t think the Church can handle it or that Christians are willing enough. I don’t know about you, but My God is definitely able to fulfill the requirements of his Great Commission.
        Humans are by their nature self-interested. Capitalism hinges on this concept. It breeds profit seeking and competitoin which ultimately leads to growth and prosperity for the greatest possible number of people. The forced redistribution of wealth does nothing though. It creates no prosperity. It moves money around, while punishing those who produce and rewarding those who do not. That’s it.
        The free market creates wealth. As a Christian, I use my wage, earned in the creation of someone else’s wealth, to help those around me. That’s my calling. It is not my calling to take my employer’s property and use it to help those around me. That’s theft. Socialism is theft.
      - Questioning
        
        You assume too much. You assume everyone who claims to be a Christian is going to act like a Christian. That is a total fail. You assume everyone has the same opportunity for success. They do not. You seem to have forgotten that the world is fallen and cannot get up on it’s own. The ruling authorities were established by God for governing in this world. Our particular form of government is elected by popular vote. Vote your conscience, but beyond that we must “give to Caesar what is Caesar’s.” Yes capitalism does breed profit seeking. It also breeds profit taking, greed, and corruption, especially by those with the most opportunity and power to do so. Is socialism the solution? No…. Does the government make a mess of it and waste money? Yes… Is there a growing gap between those who have and those who have not in our country? Most definitely… Our economy is not a silo. It is subject to the whims of the global economy that it is a part of. You seem to imply that to be Christian and American gives us some special place in this global econmy. It does not. There are no silver bullets, but only argument, compromise, and the failures and successes that result. Finally, as a Christian, you might want to reread the passages on anger, rage, malice and slander.
      - tarl_hutch
        
        Is it not in our best interest to help people stay above the poverty line? As people below this line, as arbitrary as it may be, will naturally gravitate to crime to make money, it is in society’s best interest to try and prevent this. Now, does our government do the best job of this? Not at the moment, but are there ways to focus on this and make it more efficient, or at the least as a church give an alternative. This is just as big an indictment against the church as against civil government.
        
        I am interested in the dichotomy of belief you have between free market capitalism, Randian philosophy, and Christianity. There certainly are bits of agreement between them, but also large hunks of ideology that are in direct conflict. Like i said, I agree with the desire for personal involvement, but how do we inspire christians to step up? Is not government made of individuals and should bend to the will of the people? This may not be happening, but is the goal.
        
        I doubt there is much way to get you to a middle ground, but do you think we could make changes that would allow people to be weaned off of assistance and placed back in the work force? This is a complicated problem, that will require a more nuances approach to solve, not ideological extremes.
        
        If it is as you say, the church’s duty to support others, then help us inspire that to happen. As you say, God, not government, is our savior. We should be about his business, and that is using what he blessed us with to bless others, and people can choose to do this individually, corporately, and even governmentally. But i do agree that we are way off currently and i would rather see the church solve it than government, I am still a little fuzzy on how the free market comes into play, but would love to hear some specific ideas. Certain social entrepreneurship does spring to mind, but what else do you think?
      - Nate Pohlman
        
        I would argue that some of the problem non-profits run into is the excessive taxation of the residents. Could you imagine the amount of increased giving that would occur if we went back to 0% income tax? Most people forget that we had no income tax to run the government before the World Wars and the government was actually still running on a surplus. Charities did quite well and people actually helped their struggling neighbor and family members as opposed to sending them to the government for help. Churches picked up the rest of the slack for those with no one to help them. I am not sure what was wrong with that model.
      - tarl_hutch
        
        I have been curious about that as well. It certainly seems possible, but I wonder if we could ever go back. We have become to militarized for our own good. We should have a strong military, as a country, though personally I am still sorting out my feelings, but we spend too much there and inefficiant programs. Plus things like roads, schools, and the like that we have gotten used to. States could handle it, but them we run the risk of many little “countries” that may be good or bad. It would be interesting to see, but neither party is really interested in accomplishing that.
      - tarl_hutch
        
        I have been curious about that as well. It certainly seems possible, but I wonder if we could ever go back. We have become to militarized for our own good. We should have a strong military, as a country, though personally I am still sorting out my feelings, but we spend too much there and inefficiant programs. Plus things like roads, schools, and the like that we have gotten used to. States could handle it, but them we run the risk of many little “countries” that may be good or bad. It would be interesting to see, but neither party is really interested in accomplishing that.
      - tarl_hutch
        
        I have been curious about that as well. It certainly seems possible, but I wonder if we could ever go back. We have become to militarized for our own good. We should have a strong military, as a country, though personally I am still sorting out my feelings, but we spend too much there and inefficiant programs. Plus things like roads, schools, and the like that we have gotten used to. States could handle it, but them we run the risk of many little “countries” that may be good or bad. It would be interesting to see, but neither party is really interested in accomplishing that.
      - Nate Pohlman
        
        I would argue that some of the problem non-profits run into is the excessive taxation of the residents. Could you imagine the amount of increased giving that would occur if we went back to 0% income tax? Most people forget that we had no income tax to run the government before the World Wars and the government was actually still running on a surplus. Charities did quite well and people actually helped their struggling neighbor and family members as opposed to sending them to the government for help. Churches picked up the rest of the slack for those with no one to help them. I am not sure what was wrong with that model.
      - Nate Pohlman
        
        I would argue that some of the problem non-profits run into is the excessive taxation of the residents. Could you imagine the amount of increased giving that would occur if we went back to 0% income tax? Most people forget that we had no income tax to run the government before the World Wars and the government was actually still running on a surplus. Charities did quite well and people actually helped their struggling neighbor and family members as opposed to sending them to the government for help. Churches picked up the rest of the slack for those with no one to help them. I am not sure what was wrong with that model.
    - Drew
      
      Pure capitalism is the worst economic system on the face of the planet. What you have just described is every 3rd world country on the planet. The Bible never even advocates this, at least in the OT, with policies such as jubilee.
      - Matt
        
        I make no claim the Bible advocates capitalism. Common sense and an understanding of human nature have led me to the conclusion it gives mankind the best opportunity for progress. The Bible is about the redemption of mankind’s souls. Economics is a tad beneath the Bible. And please provide me an example of a third world country that has embraced true capitalism.
      - http://www.facebook.com/people/Arthur-Newman/100000511906438 Arthur Newman
        
        The ultimate end of capitalism is an oligarchy made up of corporate CEOs and shareholders who hold rule over monopolies. Example: printed and broadcast news and entertainment. The government used to enforce policies to prevent monopolies in the market, to prevent corporations from branching out of their key market (print, radio, television). Those corporations lobbied for waivers, changing laws, and special rights. Now look at what we have? Six corperations own 80% of the news and entertainment industry in this country controlled by a couple hundred individuals. How is that supporting competition and freedom?
      - http://www.facebook.com/people/Arthur-Newman/100000511906438 Arthur Newman
        
        The ultimate end of capitalism is an oligarchy made up of corporate CEOs and shareholders who hold rule over monopolies. Example: printed and broadcast news and entertainment. The government used to enforce policies to prevent monopolies in the market, to prevent corporations from branching out of their key market (print, radio, television). Those corporations lobbied for waivers, changing laws, and special rights. Now look at what we have? Six corperations own 80% of the news and entertainment industry in this country controlled by a couple hundred individuals. How is that supporting competition and freedom?
      - Drew
        
        As long as you’re honest that you are advocating for a system that has no basis in the Bible then that works for me.
        
        The Bible does not speak much about government especially not a free and democratically-elected government. You are right on this point. That is why this issue is such a struggle for people, although we do see in the Old Testament examples of government/leadership, as well as a few verses in Romans.
        
        Your question is loaded because you can set the definition so high that there is no country that qualifies as truly capitalistic. However, you can do the same for socialism. I would strongly suggest to you that no country in Europe is Socialist by the textbook definition of the term.
        
        If you are looking for a country with limited regulation, free markets, no socialism and limited/no safety nets and redistribution of wealth, Haiti is a 3rd world country that has true capitalism. Lack of regulation in mining has stripped a lot of the countryside and has made flooding prevalent. Lack of a safety net has left millions in dire poverty and thousands dying of lack of food, water, and medical attention. Wealth is vastly unequal and concentrated in the top 5% of the population.
      - Drew
        
        As long as you’re honest that you are advocating for a system that has no basis in the Bible then that works for me.
        
        The Bible does not speak much about government especially not a free and democratically-elected government. You are right on this point. That is why this issue is such a struggle for people, although we do see in the Old Testament examples of government/leadership, as well as a few verses in Romans.
        
        Your question is loaded because you can set the definition so high that there is no country that qualifies as truly capitalistic. However, you can do the same for socialism. I would strongly suggest to you that no country in Europe is Socialist by the textbook definition of the term.
        
        If you are looking for a country with limited regulation, free markets, no socialism and limited/no safety nets and redistribution of wealth, Haiti is a 3rd world country that has true capitalism. Lack of regulation in mining has stripped a lot of the countryside and has made flooding prevalent. Lack of a safety net has left millions in dire poverty and thousands dying of lack of food, water, and medical attention. Wealth is vastly unequal and concentrated in the top 5% of the population.
      - Drew
        
        As long as you’re honest that you are advocating for a system that has no basis in the Bible then that works for me.
        
        The Bible does not speak much about government especially not a free and democratically-elected government. You are right on this point. That is why this issue is such a struggle for people, although we do see in the Old Testament examples of government/leadership, as well as a few verses in Romans.
        
        Your question is loaded because you can set the definition so high that there is no country that qualifies as truly capitalistic. However, you can do the same for socialism. I would strongly suggest to you that no country in Europe is Socialist by the textbook definition of the term.
        
        If you are looking for a country with limited regulation, free markets, no socialism and limited/no safety nets and redistribution of wealth, Haiti is a 3rd world country that has true capitalism. Lack of regulation in mining has stripped a lot of the countryside and has made flooding prevalent. Lack of a safety net has left millions in dire poverty and thousands dying of lack of food, water, and medical attention. Wealth is vastly unequal and concentrated in the top 5% of the population.
    - Anonymous
      
      Matt, if you are a Christian isn’t it true that none of what you have, including “your” money, is really yours but is all God’s anyway?
    - Anonymous
      
      Matt, if you are a Christian isn’t it true that none of what you have, including “your” money, is really yours but is all God’s anyway?
    - Anonymous
      
      Matt, if you are a Christian isn’t it true that none of what you have, including “your” money, is really yours but is all God’s anyway?
  - Matt
    
    Oh. . . To answer your question about safety nets and entitlements and the such. Common sense observations. Have you ever known of an entitlement to go away, suggesting that conditions improve? No. It never happens. Entitlements only expand, as do safety nets. Has welfare, food stamps, anything made a dent in poverty. And you can leavd out the figures since 2008. There is a great piece from the early 90s, I think, by a guy named Moynihan, who was an. advisor to LBJ when the Great Society was being forced down our throats. It talks about how back then he predicted welfare would destroy the black family and then in the 90s they finally had the numbers to back it up. Welfare and any government program outside the scope of regular, original intent Constitutional federalism erodes human basic liberty and saps our God-given creative and ingenius spirit. That is a fact.
- Anonymous
  
  Nowhere in this piece have I advocated socialism. I mentioned the word in the title in quotation marks. You obviously didn’t read any of it. Try again.
Nate Pohlman

Amazing how quickly people forget the economic system that has been the biggest source of sending missionaries around the world that history has ever seen. Furthermore, the idea that government is somehow going to magically help the poor because the church is too busy building huge buildings and that the Christianity can be used through socialism is flat out amazing. Government has proven over and over throughout history to be the least efficient and most wasteful method of taking care of people. Rich people who pay more taxes to spread the wealth in turn have less to give to charitable organizations and many others stop giving altogether because their taxes are going to that.

The author also stated a complete misunderstanding of free market capitalism in this article. Regulation of markets is done by the markets, the problems have arisen when corrupt politicians and the Federal Reserve create bubbles in the economy and then bailout the people who made bad risks. In true free market capitalism, the markets punish the losers by having them go out of business and reward the good companies. Now, I do agree with the dangers of worshiping the money and success that the best economic system can create. Please concentrate your efforts there as opposed to promoting socialism.
- Anonymous
  
  Where am I promoting socialism? This is a call to temper your critique of government programs for the poor and not lose your soul in the process. Meritocracy and idolatry of the market have no place in Christianity.
  
  Now regarding your assertions about capitalism, capitalism in its purest, completely deregulated form consists in monopolies and Ponzi schemes. It works the best under totalitarian dictatorships like China. You have no empirical basis for your utopian vision of what the free market is supposed to look like. 2008 will happen again and again until the free market utopians are finally repudiated.
  - Matt
    
    Nothing is inherently wrong with monopolies, first of all. Its the nature of the beast. But again, monopolies do not promote innovation which is why they will eventually fall on their own. Your “god,” socialist economics, just punishes innovation entirely by taxing would-be productive people and calling it “helping the poor.” So when your precious government actually creates monopolies through idiot regulations and dumb tax policies you have already broken the will to innovate is already busted.
    
    And I know you don’t want to admit it or even acknowledge reality, but 2008 was caused by regulation and government interference with the mortgage lending industry. The government’s insistence that everyone needs a house created the bubble. Your version of helping people is awfully painful.
    - Matt
      
      Never sit through a meeting and text this stuff out on your phone while halfway listening to whats going on. Your sentences get a tad jumbled. The intent is their though, I hope.
      - http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=746306326 Dave Burke
        
        I don’t know how many times it needs to be pointed out that the article does not advocate socialism and does not suggest that socialism will solve anything.
        
        The article is about practising certain types of decent Christian behaviour and refusing to be intimidated by those who wrongly suggest that these types of decent Christian behaviour comprise ‘socialism.’
        
        Predictably, the discussion thread has been filled with ugly, pointless rants from people whose minds are stuck in the McCarthy era and haven’t even read the article properly.
        
        All this whinging about socialism is completely irrelevant, and suggests to me that there are some contributors here who have a reading age of 6.
      - Matt
        
        The article says that I shouldn’t be offended by socialism and that I should be ok if socialist policies are rammed down my throat from the government because the government is doing “God’s work.” You’re right, Mr. Guyton does not “advocate” socialism. He just tells me that I shouldn’t object to it. Sorry chief, here in the real world, being a silent dissenter is exactly the same as being a supporter. If you can’t convince them to agree with you, convince them to shut their mouths. Oldest trick in the book.
      - http://aredemptionofhope.blogspot.com Ally C
        
        Sooo… i guess the government should just take back the highway system, all the libraries and schools, the fire and police departments… oh, and Social Security! Y’know, all those “socialist” programs we have- because “socialism” is so evil.
      - Matt
        
        Socialism is evil. I’m not an anarchist, I’m a capitalist. I believe in the orginal intent of the Constitution as it is written. I believe in law and order and and an unbiased court system and foregin policy that promotes business and contract enforcement. I don’t like public libraries and schools though, you’re right there. Let’s totally get on the business of privatizing those. But who needs libraries anymore? Tear them down. Let’s make shopping malls.
        There is a very important distinction between the federal government and state and local governments that need to be made. States can do what they want for the most part. Its when the Feds start imposing their will that I get a tad firey.
      - http://aredemptionofhope.blogspot.com Ally C
        
        Who needs libraries? Well, my sister, for one. She’s a library director. Do you have any idea the number of jobs you’d kill with such an idea? Libraries serve an important function to society… but i doubt you care about that.
        
        Socialism isn’t anarchy. You want examples of “socialism” that work? Denmark. The Netherlands. Sweden. Switzerland. Norway. Want me to go on?
        
        Want the US to be a powerful force for good in this world? Then let’s take care of our own, let’s revamp our equality laws, let’s stop going to war with the world.
        
        i don’t think anybody here said that capitalism is inherently evil– but here’s the thing, neither is socialism.
      - Nate Pohlman
        
        Reagan’s quote sure fits this conversation “the closest thing to eternal life that we will ever see here on earth is a government program”. Libraries are dinosaurs in a digital world, the only way that they survive is if they reinvent themselves or get some friends in high places.
      - Nate Pohlman
        
        Reagan’s quote sure fits this conversation “the closest thing to eternal life that we will ever see here on earth is a government program”. Libraries are dinosaurs in a digital world, the only way that they survive is if they reinvent themselves or get some friends in high places.
      - Nate Pohlman
        
        Reagan’s quote sure fits this conversation “the closest thing to eternal life that we will ever see here on earth is a government program”. Libraries are dinosaurs in a digital world, the only way that they survive is if they reinvent themselves or get some friends in high places.
      - Anonymous
        
        The reason there’s not much point in engaging you, Matt, is because we have two fundamentally different worldviews. Yours is Darwinian and mine is Christian.
      - Anonymous
        
        The reason there’s not much point in engaging you, Matt, is because we have two fundamentally different worldviews. Yours is Darwinian and mine is Christian.
      - Anonymous
        
        The reason there’s not much point in engaging you, Matt, is because we have two fundamentally different worldviews. Yours is Darwinian and mine is Christian.
      - Anonymous
        
        Three questions: 1) Do you think that meritocracy is Christian? 2) How do you interpret Romans 13 regarding God’s providential use of government? 3) Do you think it’s possible for markets to be corrupted?
      - Matt
        
        1) I think your view of meritocracy is skewed from mine. To me, meritocracy means that all mean are created equal, born with the God-given natural rights to life, liberty, and property. In this context, it is the responsibility of individuals to make the most out of their own lives. The first step in doing this is to accept Christ as your Lord and Savior. Without that step, nothing really matters. Regardless, in a free society people should be allowed equal opportunity for success. I’m not saying “equality” should be forced on people through social welfare and misguided politics. I’m saying that individuals should be allowed to succeed and fail. The government protects the building blocks of freedom (life, liberty, property) and individuals do the rest. As a Christian, I understand that my success comes from God. It is not mine. I am to take the blessings I have been given and do his will. For non-Christians though, they are free to do with their own wages as they see fit. It is not my place or the government’s or yours to tell them otherwise. Its not even my place to tell Christians what to do with their own gifts.
        2) Governments are appointed by God. I don’t know God’s reasoning. If you do, please share. That being said, I believe, oh so very much, in the inherent freedom of mankind. I get fired up just thinking about it. I have a yearning in my heart for freedom. I believe Romans 13 gives Government the power of the sword to enact justice, both at home and abroad. But, I believe that the basic, fundamental role of any government of any free society should be, like I said above, the preservation of life (law and order), liberty (political freedom), and property (economic freedom). Outside of that, I don’t see much of a role for government. I know this is such an “extreme” stance, but freedom is constantly on the edge of a knife.
        3) Capitalism is amoral. It is neither good nor bad. It just is. Humans on the other hand are inherently evil. I’ve said this before within these comments. Capitalism takes human nature (our greedy, evil selves) and plays it off of one another to the betterment of society as a whole. There are greedy people who will try to cheat the system, but that’s why the government maintains an unbiased court system so we can sue when we are wronged and contracts are enforced and so on. The market can be a messy place and people are losers every day. But in a meritocracy, we don’t have to stay losers. We pick ourselves back up and go and win. Its the American way. And please understand, I believe all of this occurs within the context of God’s blessings. I know we are nothing. Guns don’t kill people, people with guns kill people. Markets aren’t corrupted. Markets work because man is corrupted. Socialism and social welfare and all the junk disregards human nature and says we can make man better. The intellectuals and the elites in their ivory towers say they can shape laws and taxes and other policies to circumvent human nature. It can’t happen. Sin shaped our nature and although salvation through Jesus can change it. That is why I think it is lunacy for Christians to advocate socialism, but you weren’t advocating it, right, my bad.
      - Matt
        
        Oof. . . mega apologies for the typos. My brain works a lot faster than my fingers.
      - Anonymous
        
        1) Meritocracy means that people get what they deserve. If I have received God’s grace that I don’t deserve because of the blood that was shed for me on the cross, then I lose the right to demand that other people get what they deserve. I seek instead what is in their best interests, which doesn’t at all mean wanting them to have an unaccountable blank check which would be to their detriment, but it does mean that thinking in terms of what people deserve is no longer admissible to me as a Christian. It’s only when I’m delivered from meritocracy by the blood of Jesus that I can truly love my neighbor and want what’s best for him or her. The problem is that our world operates according to the logic of meritocracy so it’s very hard to remember that we live under grace instead.
        
        2) You said you believe in “equal opportunity.” I agree. I think that a kid who grows up in the inner city should have the same chance to succeed as a kid who grows up in the suburbs. This is why I don’t think that tax dollars should only go to cops and armies. I think a kid who goes to a run-down inner city school should be able to take German in high school if he wants and play in a marching band that isn’t any less resourced than the one in the suburbs. I also think that if this kid gets sick, he should have access to the health care he needs even if his parents work minimum-wage jobs with no benefits. I’m not at all an advocate of some kind of “wealth redistribution” where money is taken away from a rich person and just given to a poor person. I don’t know anyone who is actually advocating that. I think it’s a straw man.
        
        3) The market is as morally neutral as a casino is. The reason the Bible says that “the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil” is because you get corrupted when you’re locked into thinking according to profit margins and this comes to trump all other ethical considerations. I think you can participate in the free market without being corrupted, but only if you’re actively and consciously resisting the gravitational pull that makes people worship money as an idol.
      - Anonymous
        
        Three questions: 1) Do you think that meritocracy is Christian? 2) How do you interpret Romans 13 regarding God’s providential use of government? 3) Do you think it’s possible for markets to be corrupted?
      - Anonymous
        
        Three questions: 1) Do you think that meritocracy is Christian? 2) How do you interpret Romans 13 regarding God’s providential use of government? 3) Do you think it’s possible for markets to be corrupted?
      - Nate Pohlman
        
        nice to see you have gone to personal attacks when someone refutes your argument… government’s best position is to protect and carry out the law and manage our armies. Some would argue they don’t even do that too well anymore but managing an economy is far beyond their pay grade as they tend to be easily bought off by the companies looking to gain an unfair advantage.
      - Nate Pohlman
        
        nice to see you have gone to personal attacks when someone refutes your argument… government’s best position is to protect and carry out the law and manage our armies. Some would argue they don’t even do that too well anymore but managing an economy is far beyond their pay grade as they tend to be easily bought off by the companies looking to gain an unfair advantage.
      - Nate Pohlman
        
        nice to see you have gone to personal attacks when someone refutes your argument… government’s best position is to protect and carry out the law and manage our armies. Some would argue they don’t even do that too well anymore but managing an economy is far beyond their pay grade as they tend to be easily bought off by the companies looking to gain an unfair advantage.
      - Nate Pohlman
        
        nice to see you have gone to personal attacks when someone refutes your
        argument… government’s best position is to protect and carry out the
        law and manage our armies. Some would argue they don’t even do that too
        well anymore but managing an economy is far beyond their pay grade as
        they tend to be easily bought off by the companies looking to gain an
        unfair
      - Nate Pohlman
        
        nice to see you have gone to personal attacks when someone refutes your
        argument… government’s best position is to protect and carry out the
        law and manage our armies. Some would argue they don’t even do that too
        well anymore but managing an economy is far beyond their pay grade as
        they tend to be easily bought off by the companies looking to gain an
        unfair
      - Nate Pohlman
        
        nice to see you have gone to personal attacks when someone refutes your
        argument… government’s best position is to protect and carry out the
        law and manage our armies. Some would argue they don’t even do that too
        well anymore but managing an economy is far beyond their pay grade as
        they tend to be easily bought off by the companies looking to gain an
        unfair
    - http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=746306326 Dave Burke
      
      Matt,
      
      >>
      And I know you don’t want to admit it or even acknowledge reality, but 2008 was caused by regulation and government interference with the mortgage lending industry.
      >>
      
      That is completely untrue. On the contrary, 2008 was the direct result of deregulation and a market which was wildly out of control.
      
      The banks and finance corporations had aggressively lobbied presidents as far back as Jimmy Carter to erode restrictions which prohibited them from indulging high-risk behaviour.
      
      They did this because high-risk behaviour brought massively high returns; much higher than they could have achieved under a safer, more regulated market.
      
      Over three decades, financial regulation was steadily reduced to the point of absurdity.
      
      This was a classic case of the market bullying the government to take its foot off the brake and its hands off the steering wheel. In other words: the exact *opposite* of government interference. For more on this, read the article here: http://bit.ly/McxHdZ
      
      It is interesting to note that Australia (which has strict finance market regulation and had refused all attempts by lobby groups to reduce this regulation) did not suffer a subprime mortgage crisis, and was the only major western economy to escape recession when the GFC hit.
      
      In fact, our economy actually *grew* during the GFC while the US and UK were drowning in debt as their major banks and corporate lenders collapsed. Regulation protected our finance sector, exactly as it was intended to do.
      
      The US and UK economies failed because their governments had bowed to the bankers and obediently stripped away the regulations that might otherwise have prevented the crisis.
      
      Alan Grenspan actually admitted this in his response to the House Oversight Committee (see the article here: http://on.wsj.com/Mcycoi).
      - Matt
        
        We could go in circles round after round on this one and as much I would love to, we don’t have time. My fingers would fall off. I’m just saying look into it. Interest rates were held very low for a long time. Lower than what the market would say is smart. Lets not forget Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were government agencies that had universal housing as a goal. The stimulus was a terrible idea. Like I said, this could go on for a while. Let’s call a truce for the time being.
  - MJCIV
    
    Morgan, but we DO have many examples of what the Utopian vision of socialism looks like: in the last century, more than 100 million dead under socialism and its sister, communism. Look at Europe today, this very minute: their economy is unraveling under the weight of the entitlements and tax burdens that are inherent to socialism. The Europeans have stopped believing in God, and stopped having children. Why would it be different here?
    
    One thing I haven’t seen mentioned in this thread: why not work in your state for the sort of programs you’d like to see? Why does it have to be the federal government, which is limited in its powers–appropriately so–by our Constitutional system? You want free health care, free housing, free education, free food, free whatever? Promote it in your state. I live in Massachusetts; we have a health care system similar to the one that the Supreme Court has just upheld. Vermont is working for a single payer system. States are free to create these sorts of programs. So…if you want a stronger social-safety net, or if you want government to have more control over your day to day life, work for it in your state. Then, if it works, other states can adopt your model.
    
    Capitalism is imperfect, but everything is imperfect in this fallen world. Capitalism needs to have clear rules, transparency, and most of important of all, human beings with the right values participating in our nation’s ‘ordered liberty.’ Our work as Christians is to exemplify and impart these values, to be leaven in our society. Don’t give in to the fantasy that someone, somewhere knows what’s best for you, or that the government can love you and take care of you.
    - Anonymous
      
      Most states are hamstrung fiscally because they’ve given away so much corporate welfare in tax breaks. Is there a single state in this nation that isn’t broke? I think states should charge a much higher sales tax because retailers can’t cut and run to China like factories can.
    - Anonymous
      
      Most states are hamstrung fiscally because they’ve given away so much corporate welfare in tax breaks. Is there a single state in this nation that isn’t broke? I think states should charge a much higher sales tax because retailers can’t cut and run to China like factories can.
    - Dyce
      
      Hello from Europe! Just to let you know we still believe in God and are still having children. Perhaps the sound of polarised hysteria stopped you hearing about it. We do tend to sit back rather bemused at some of the assumptions America makes about the rest of us.
  - Nate Pohlman
    
    So you are arguing that the atmosphere we had in 2008 was pure free market capitalism? We haven’t had pure free markets for many years. Government got its hands into it with laws and regulations that forced and created incentives for banks to make bad decisions and created fake economic bubbles along with the Federal Reserve who financed it. I would argue much in the same way government is getting more and more into the church’s business of helping the poor and widows. We are already seeing how the main Democrats give that believe in the socialist utopia. Obama and Biden combined didn’t give over 2% of their incomes.
    
    I would much prefer the day and age where people were ashamed to be on a government assistance program and worked their butts off to get off of it or not go on it in the first place as compared to today where I now hear women in the nursery at church talking up all the “free” stuff they got on WIC and how everyone else should try to get on it. Oh yeah and if you get on welfare, WIC and other government programs you now qualify for a free cell phone from the government. The main problem with giving the government an inch with what seems like a good motive is that they in turn take a mile since they are spending other people’s money. Maybe we should also have the government take over all the churches as well since they are doing such a good job with the charity and health care programs….
    - Anonymous
      
      What if you just loved “the women in your nursery” as equals instead of quoting them disparagingly to support your ideological arguments online?
      - Nate Pohlman
        
        I think you have the blog with the ideological arguments… love how you skirt the question with a typical patronizing “Christian” attack about loving people. I love people a lot and I give a lot. I just don’t like being forced to give my hard earned tax dollars to do the job that Christians should be doing and promoting general laziness and dependence on the government. I grew up in a house where we had very little and my dad worked multiple jobs to avoid government assistance and he also received some timely financial help from his Christian friends that he didn’t ask for but very much appreciated. That used to be considered being a good American. I now have a college degree and a good job and have done better than my parents as have my brother and sister. That my friend is what free market capitalism is all about and millions of others can tell the same story. Even the semi-flawed system we have now is better than anywhere else in the world.
      - Anonymous
        
        The problem with your argument is you repeatedly use “mine”. So what if my hard work is not appreciated by the people for which I provide! So what if my taxes go to support someone that I don’t think works hard enought! All of those concerns are purely selfish. All that I have is a blessing from God. None of it is mine. The lie of politics to today is the combining of Christianity and politics into its own religion. I struggle to remind myself everyday that only God’s economy matters and my primary purpose is to be obedient to Him in what I do everyday. With that, I now no now longer have the time, energy, or inclination to try to determine whether someone else deserves anything. I am certainly not deserving of anything He has given me. Where in Christianity anything given on merit?
      - Anonymous
        
        Thank you Jerry. Exactly. We have no rights, only the privilege of serving our Master.
      - Anonymous
        
        How in the world are there 3 dislikes and no likes on this comment?!?!? The whole basis of what Jesus was teaching us is that must subjugate our own wants and desires to God’s will. That is the entire basis of following the will of God over our own! Jesus went to the cross out of obedience to God’s will but it was not something he wanted to experience. Could you not make the arguement that Jesus had a “right” to his own life? When we claim our rights are superior to those of our Master then we no longer have the right to call ourselves a Christian, which by definition means “Christ follower”. When we choose to focus on our “rights” our “God” can no longer lead us based prmarily on obedience and love. I don’t get it. I really don’t…
      - Nate Pohlman
        
        exactly, how about trusting in God for your health and livelihood instead of the almighty government… MY dad got on his knees everyday and prayed for our health because we didn’t have health insurance growing up. I thank God everyday for what I have and where I live because there are a lot worse places to live in this world. Personally, I do agree with Morgan in that economics and Christianity aren’t definitive and this is more of a Free Market Limited government vs. socialism/big government argument. I would argue though that the later is leads to more dependence and trust in government as opposed to dependence and trust in God.
      - Anonymous
        
        Do you know the “women in your nursery” well enough that if they needed your “timely financial help,” they would feel comfortable asking you?
      - Nate Pohlman
        
        They would never ask anymore, they run to the government where it is now cool to be on Medicaid, food stamps and WIC. Just saw an ad that my tax dollars are paying for that had 2 older ladies talking about how being on government assistance is now the cool thing to do and can make you more healthy too. I am not for people being ashamed to be experiencing tough times, I am just questioning whether it should be the government’s role to help them. I would argue that is the Christian’s role and that they can do it a lot more efficiently. If you know of any government’s that do a better more efficient job please state your case.
      - http://twitter.com/MAGuyton Morgan Guyton
        
        Based on what you’ve shared, I’m not sure you would help your nursery ladies if they asked you. You would probably have a good explanation for why they didn’t deserve it. Despite whatever stereotypes you have about government agencies, the one thing that social workers are trained to do that you and I are not is how to vet people who come to them seeking help. Whenever people who aren’t part of our church community come to the church asking for money, we send them to the county. There are tons of scam artists out there and it’s hard to distinguish what’s legit from what isn’t. The irony is that a state social worker is going to be more efficient than a random do-gooder because the random do-gooder is going to get played.
        
        I think the reason you have a strong opinion on this is because you love your dad and it makes you mad to think that he had to go through life in a way that other people don’t. Your dad sounds like a great man. I would never want to dishonor his sacrifices or hard work. The one thing I would say is it’s not necessarily apples and apples. For a poor kid to get vaccinated is not the same thing as getting a free cell phone from WIC which shouldn’t happen if it is happening. Getting vaccinated has to do with equal opportunity which falls within the legitimate boundaries of what the government is supposed to provide.
      - Nate Pohlman
        
        My mother worked in a church as a secretary for many years so I know all about the scam artists. I would personally direct them to the church run soup kitchen When I hear the line about vaccinations for poor kids, I think how did they do it before. There was once a day when doctors and drug companies while making a good living also took care of those who couldn’t pay or they took payment in trades.
        What this really comes down to is common everyday Christians who are struggling. Why wouldn’t Christians who are truly making relationships with people in the church as well as their neighbors not know what the right time to help someone is anymore than our government? I think you are in some naive world where the government can do no wrong. I have a personal friend who worked as a welfare agent and the stories of the fraud and what the people were doing with our tax dollars is sickening. Lets just say he didn’t have any shortage of homes with their thermostats set on 80 in the winter because the government was paying the tab. I would take good spirit led intentions of people as well as well run charities any day over the politically driven motives of the government looking for the next vote.
      - Nate Pohlman
        
        I think you have the blog with the ideological arguments… love how you skirt the question with a typical patronizing “Christian” attack about loving people. I love people a lot and I give a lot. I just don’t like being forced to give my hard earned tax dollars to do the job that Christians should be doing and promoting general laziness and dependence on the government. I grew up in a house where we had very little and my dad worked multiple jobs to avoid government assistance and he also received some timely financial help from his Christian friends that he didn’t ask for but very much appreciated. That used to be considered being a good American. I now have a college degree and a good job and have done better than my parents as have my brother and sister. That my friend is what free market capitalism is all about and millions of others can tell the same story. Even the semi-flawed system we have now is better than anywhere else in the world.
      - Nate Pohlman
        
        I think you have the blog with the ideological arguments… love how you skirt the question with a typical patronizing “Christian” attack about loving people. I love people a lot and I give a lot. I just don’t like being forced to give my hard earned tax dollars to do the job that Christians should be doing and promoting general laziness and dependence on the government. I grew up in a house where we had very little and my dad worked multiple jobs to avoid government assistance and he also received some timely financial help from his Christian friends that he didn’t ask for but very much appreciated. That used to be considered being a good American. I now have a college degree and a good job and have done better than my parents as have my brother and sister. That my friend is what free market capitalism is all about and millions of others can tell the same story. Even the semi-flawed system we have now is better than anywhere else in the world.
    - Anonymous
      
      What if you just loved “the women in your nursery” as equals instead of quoting them disparagingly to support your ideological arguments online?
    - Anonymous
      
      What if you just loved “the women in your nursery” as equals instead of quoting them disparagingly to support your ideological arguments online?
- Questioning
  
  > Regulation of markets is done by the markets, the problems have arisen when corrupt politicians and the Federal Reserve create bubbles in the economy and then bailout the people who made bad risks. In true free market capitalism, the markets punish the losers by having them go out of business and reward the good companies. <
  Yeah maybe, in a perfect world where the playing field is level and everyone is honest and no one is greedy and your success or failure is truly only up to you. This place does not exist and never will. Regulations came into being for a reason Are you saying there are only corrupt politicians and no corrupt business people? I don't think the author was promoting socialism as a replacement for capitalism, but rather there are some characteristics of it that might be applied to protect the innocent.
  - tarl_hutch
    
    Thank you for bringing up these points. People are people and we need checks and balances. This is what was so genius about the founders of this country, they knee that power and greed corrupt and must be watched.
    
    We need to use common sense approaches that use the best of either side to accomplish our goals. Test everything and keep what is good.
- Sxeptomaniac
  
  The followers of the free market cult love to believe that “free markets regulate themselves,” but the reality is that it has never worked that way. They ignore history, such as the Gilded Age (the late 19th century), in which little regulation led to scams, corruption, manipulation, dangerous products, and near-slavery conditions for workers. The rich, “robber barons”, did quite well for themselves, but typically by oppressing those below. .
- Sxeptomaniac
  
  The followers of the free market cult love to believe that “free markets regulate themselves,” but the reality is that it has never worked that way. They ignore history, such as the Gilded Age (the late 19th century), in which little regulation led to scams, corruption, manipulation, dangerous products, and near-slavery conditions for workers. The rich, “robber barons”, did quite well for themselves, but typically by oppressing those below. .
- Sxeptomaniac
  
  The followers of the free market cult love to believe that “free markets regulate themselves,” but the reality is that it has never worked that way. They ignore history, such as the Gilded Age (the late 19th century), in which little regulation led to scams, corruption, manipulation, dangerous products, and near-slavery conditions for workers. The rich, “robber barons”, did quite well for themselves, but typically by oppressing those below. .
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=645396351 Naomi Hill

of course from the other side of the pond you can easily put socialism and Christianity in the same sentence
http://www.thecsm.org.uk/ …. but then socialism does not equal Communism in British English… just sayin’
- DrewTwo
  
  Indeed. Same here in Canada. There are dozens of robust democracies around the world, with comprehensive government social programs that still that cherish freedom and civil rights. Imagine that!
- DrewTwo
  
  Indeed. Same here in Canada. There are dozens of robust democracies around the world, with comprehensive government social programs that still that cherish freedom and civil rights. Imagine that!
Anonymous

Wow, very well thought out and argued position. I have been trying to put my finger on my personal opposition to the claim that capitalism is Christian. Morgan summed up my opposition very well by bringing Darwin into the discussion. It does seem to me that capitalism is based primarily on survival of the fittest. That type of economic attitude doesn’t seem to match with Christianity.
Anonymous

Wow, very well thought out and argued position. I have been trying to put my finger on my personal opposition to the claim that capitalism is Christian. Morgan summed up my opposition very well by bringing Darwin into the discussion. It does seem to me that capitalism is based primarily on survival of the fittest. That type of economic attitude doesn’t seem to match with Christianity.
Anonymous

How ’bout a column that really addresses socialism and how we as Christians should view that economic system (and some of the related comments about socialism posted here)?

I’m not sure we all share a common definition of socialism. Seems to be a lot of misinformation floating around (is socialism an economic or political system, is there a difference between socialism and social welfare states, has socialism always failed, why do many American evangelicals tend to view it with hostility, how do other evangelicals around the world see and respond to socialism)?

I had a difficult time getting past the term “Teavangelicals”. Maybe it’s descriptive and helpful (and sort of funny) shorthand categorizing. But it seems disrespectful of others’ views to me (maybe because I’m a bleeding heart democratic socialist suffering from perpetual liberal guilt ).
keith

It all sounds so pretty But is in reality an empty argument. The problem with your hypothesis is that if not for capitalism there would be nothing to give out in a meritocracy. Govt, when left to itself, creates nothing, makes nothing and will self destruct when put in a socialist realm. Take a look at California today. Three cities within the last 2 weeks declare bankruptcy. I dont know of Jesus telling anyone to shirk their bills? Also, you show your liberal bias when you refer to a segment of people as Teavangelists.The Tea Party you are insulting happens to be the ONLY voice of reason in an insane liberal environment. Their agenda is and always has been, fiscal conservativism. There is too much waste and we are headed for a financial disaster. You can bash them for a bogus claim about meritocracy all you want but the bottom line is this. The Tea Party NEVER said anything about not helping those who need it. Pay close attention to this: A MAN WHO CAN WORK AND DOES NOT DOES NOT DESERVE TO BE PAID. END OF STORY AND YOU CANT SHOW ANY BIBLE VERSE TO REFUTE IT. Quit twisting the argument. Now, as far as Obamacare, I believe the government has an obligation to tell the truth. They also have an obligation to be good stewards which they are not.
I will end with this. If your theory plays out and we continue to dole out “borrowed” money then what the heck are you going to say when we can no longer exist?? You must be smoking weed if you think we can sustain our existing situation. Another thing is if we get sick of paying out money for wasteful programs, corrupt programs etc…then where are you going to get the money that you want to give away?? If not for capitalism you would not even be here. No socialist nation has ever existed for very long without complete turmoil and civil unrest.
- Jennifer A. Nolan
  
  But we already ARE paying out money we cannot afford. It’s just going to people who have enough, and to spare, already. The is nothing godly about debt peonage for those who do their share and play by the rules.