Open and Affirming Because of the Bible

Welcome Mat

I want to start by saying that any time there are two people with opposing views concerning a third group of people, the resulting conversation will involve much audacity, hubris and privilege. That I am given a platform to speak here is a sign of that privilege, and I hope to be a good steward of it. For all the ways I will screw that up, I want to apologize to my LGBT sisters and brothers in advance.

It’s against my nature to spend a lot of time in arguments – they seldom do anything to convince the other and serve to fuel the fires of the already converted. So, this post, while written as a result of the previous post on gay marriage, should not be seen as an argument with the author of that post.

Rather, what I hope to do is present an alternative view of how, to use that author’s term, Biblical Christianity can be used to shape a worldview that is not only open but affirming.

Our differing views, I think, come down to how one views scripture: Is the Bible a book where we seek precedents or a book where we find principles?

You can make a much stronger textual case against woman preaching or divorce or in favor of slavery or women being submissive than you can against same gender relationships. Each time we have faced one of these issues, we have thought it prudent to disregard Biblical precedent in favor of Biblical principle.

Today, we cisgender Christians face a similar question to the one faced by the Apostle Paul – How do we act toward the follower of Christ who is outside our own category?

For Paul, the question involved circumcision – could a male with a foreskin be a faithful and fully included member of the body? The Jewish leadership of the church said no, but Paul argued for a “circumcision of the heart” – that it was the intent and inner actions of the believer that made a person a follower of the Christ and not a matter of their belonging to a given category.

To Paul, their identity as a follower of the Christ trumped all other categories. Paul believed this revelation to be at the heart of the good news of the Christ – that we no longer regard anyone from a human point of view, but that God, through Christ, has reconciled the world unto God.

Paul said that anything less than full inclusion of all Christians was wrong. He argued this in Jerusalem to the 12, and he again in several of his letters, most famously in Galatians. In Christ, he said, there is no longer slave or free, Jew or Greek, male or female, we are all one in Christ Jesus. If, as he says in Romans, there is nothing that can come between us and the love of God, would Paul limit himself with only those categories? What categories are stronger than the love of God?

My understanding of Biblical Christianity leads me to believe that all Christians are my brother and my sister – whether black or white, gay or straight, transgendered or cisgendered. ALL are one in Christ Jesus.

So, I can hear the author of the previous post ask, where is our sexual ethic to be found? In Biblical principle, not precedent. Jesus tells us to love our neighbor and to do to others what we want done to us. Is cheating on my partner wrong? Yes, because it is not how I would wish to be treated, and it is not loving toward my partner. It has nothing to do with my or my potential bedmate’s genitals.

Is having sex with a child wrong? Yes, because the child cannot consent, and thus it is an occasion of of power and coercion, neither of which is loving or how we would wish to be treated. Are two people (of any gender or orientation) having mutually consenting sex as an expression of their love and commitment wrong? It is loving and how I want my sexual relationships to work, so no, it is not.

I know this will not satisfy those who want to pick the Bible apart for rules and regulations, but that’s nothing new – Jesus talked about those who strained gnats and swallowed camels, who focused on letters instead of spirit and intent.

In short, I feel, as a result of Biblical principle and conscience, that to be less than fully inclusive is to participate in less than the fullness of the Gospel. In my reading of scripture, to actively oppose the full inclusion of LGBT Christians is an act that is less than Christian. In fact, I would argue that when we erect categories that preclude people from fully participating in the life of the church (and marriage is part of the life of the church) we are working against the in-breaking of the Kingdom of God on earth and we deny the very testimony of the resurrection of Christ.

Now, I am the first to admit that this might not convince you. I understand. But if so, ask yourself a few questions: Would you rather be on the side of love or on the side of power? If you have to face your God over this question, is God really going to condemn you for privileging love? If you are married, and I told you the only way you could be fully right with and love God was to leave your partner and be celibate forever, would you see that as Good News?

Neither do they.

—-
Hugh Hollowell is an activist, a speaker and a Mennonite minister. He’s the founder and director of Love Wins Ministries where he pastors a congregation made up largely of people who are homeless.

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About the Author

Hugh HollowellHugh Hollowell http://hughlh.com/articles is an activist, a speaker and a Mennonite minister. He is the founder and director of Love Wins Ministries http://lovewins.info where he pastors a congregation made up largely of people who are homeless.View all posts by Hugh Hollowell →

  • John Fischer

    I agree with you that we are called to love one another.

    Sorry, as someone who came out of the homosexual lifestyle, I STRONGLY disagree with your view. And I am tired of ‘heterosexual Christians’ who want to make gay sex okay. You don’t know what you are talking about. Have you been struggling with same sex attractions? Obviously not. 
    Is it natural? Think of the anal muscles – was it created to function the same way as vaginal muscles? Also, what health risks are their in anal sex? Talk to doctors about what risks you are exposing yourself to when you engage anal sex.  

    And, why do people feel attracted to people of the same sex? How does nature and nurture play a role? Circumcision has nothing to do with orientation.  Circumcision was a covenant sign.  Love does not mean I except sinful behavior.  I concur, Christians have been judgmental about sin – we judge homosexuals, but not gossipers or people who divorce for the wrong reasons.  However, you are not loving me by encouraging me to embrace my same sex attractions.  You are actually hating me. I am so glad I did not read this 15 years ago.  I would have been so deceived as a young and impressionable person.I have been on a journey for a long time, struggling with my sexual identity.  God has showed me who I am in Christ.  I grieve Christians who use the ‘love’ angle to say everything is okay.  And to say ‘a child cannot consent’ – well, it is not that clear cut.  Where do you draw the line? Society says it is okay for 16 year old to have sex with a 16 year old, but not a 16 year old with a 19 year old.  Yes, God loves us all. But shall we continue in sin so that grace may abide? Certainly not!

    We are called to make decisions. Recently I saw on CNN a discussion on a gene they found that makes certain men more likely to commit adultery than other men.  If this is true, should we then say we have to “LOVE” our adulterous brother because he cannot help his adulterous ways?

    YES, some people have more difficult struggles than others – but this is by NO means a right to engage in sinful activities. 

    It will be helpful to get other voices of people who came out of homosexual lifestyles like Andy Comiskey and others.   They all testify to this – homosexuality is a FALSE identity and Christians are not helping when they want to endorse such false lifestyles.

    • Jcorey006

      I am in total agreement with you John. I am also delivered from homosexuality and it saddens me that some heterosexual christians think the way they think. In all honesty its scary…

      • Keith Carr61

        Jc…I applaud you also my friend. It takes a lot of courage to stand up like this. I wish you could talk with my cousin. He needs a testimony like yours. Prayers

      • Anonymous

        Jcorey – thanks to both you & John Fischer for sharing your stories.

    • Drew

      “I grieve Christians who use the ‘love’ angle to say everything is okay.”

      Excellent point.  Thanks for sharing your story.

    • Keith Carr61

      John….God Bless you my friend. Oh what a chill ran down my spine as I read your posts and I KNOW that God is working in you and through you. I will pray for you ernestly that he will protect you from the attacks that you will face when taking this bold stance. I pray for Gods protection from attacks that will be launched at you from so-called Christians even as I type this. Stay strong and faithful. You have a timely and relevant message to proclaim. Thank you again.

    • Jacobmic

      Troll.

    • Jacobmic

      Oh, no… wait a minute.  ”John Fischer is James Dobson ^ Makes sense now.

      • Aaaaaaaaaargh

        I think that’s a bit unfair.  I personally know Christians who consider themselves “ex-gay,” and I don’t think it’s our place to cast judgement on them either.  Some of us have been calling out Keith Carr for his abusive and inflammatory language, and this doesn’t help the issue.

    • Questioning

      John, I appreciate the frankness and honesty in your comments. This is a topic I am struggling with personally because my son recently revealed to me and his mother that he is gay. I will say that ever since then, he has been much happier, more responsible, and more focused. Obviously, he struggled for a long time with who he is and apparently has come to terms with it and it also explains much of our frustration with his behavior previously. I found your “hating me” comment a bit alarming, but that sword has a double edge. How many homosexuals have lived in misery and / or taken their own lives because they hated and could not accept who they were? I also wanted to just offer my viewpoints on some of your other comments.  Is it natural? It would seem not, but for whatever reason it happens to us. Since you were explicit, I will be too. I am not homosexual but I would think that sexual contact does not have to include dominant / submissive roles which leads me right to another point I find disturbing in these discussions and what I read in the biblical translations. The focus is always on men. It’s as if there is prejudice within the topic itself. I bet if the only gender that practiced homosexuality was the female gender these discussions would not be nearly as frequent and polarizing…. but I think we are missing the point here. The major assumption we are working off of is that homosexuality is a sin. All these other things,  affirming, endorsing, condemning, are symptoms based on that assumption. Until the modern translations the word did not even appear in the Bible and even some conservatives are willing to admit those translations are shaky. This is unlike your adultery analogy where the Bible is crystal clear. Adultery is adultery no matter what translation you pick up. My point is, and I know my opinions are colored by what I want to believe about my son, I don’t think the “homosexuality is sin” topic is settled in the minds of many. It’s not that we want to endorse or condone sin, or love everybody no matter what they do, but we want want to understand the scriptures in light of the knowledge we have gained since they were written. Knowledge that we have gained through the abilities and talents that God gave us. If I ever have a moment of complete clarity and somehow understand based on insight given by the Holy Spirit, I will be the first to give that counsel to my son, but until then I am searching.                    

      • Aaron

        “Until the modern translations the word did not even appear in the Bible” I think you’ll find that’s because the word homosexual is relatively new to the English language. As such it would have been impossible to use this word when the KJV was written – it didn’t exist!

        • Questioning

          Understood…  but this only further illustrates the fact that our understanding and knowledge of this topic have changed greatly over the centuries. Given this understanding, it may be time to re-examine our responses to it.  

        • http://nailtothedoor.blogspot.com Dan Martin

          Actually that statement is a bit logically specious.  Whatever your interpretation of the Biblical passages in question, that interpretation does not depend on the term “homosexual.”  Whether it’s one of the “club” passages such as Leviticus’ man lying with a man, or the “natural relations” of Romans, the meaning of the verse does not depend on any of the terminology we use today, as the verses are sufficiently descriptive in any case.  You can disagree about whether they still apply to us today, but it’s nonsensical to say they aren’t saying what they’re saying.

          As I have repeatedly said, I think the affirmative Biblical definition of marriage is far more important in these arguments than is the negatives of the usual whack-em-over-the-head passages.  @d07dd0f401023249ca939ca318eccd39:disqus was right in his statement above “Adultery is adultery no matter what translation you pick up.”  I would say the same thing for marriage.  That’s why I conclude homosexual sex is biblically wrong, not because it’s gay, but because it’s adulterous.

  • Randy

    I find it interesting that this was at the bottom of the counter- point post but not this one.
    [Editor's Note: A Follow-Up Post discussing these issues and arguments from a different angle will appear later today. This article does not present the views of Red Letter Christians but rather serves as a conversation starter to one side of the argument. The dialog will continue later today.]

    Why the need in one and not the other? If this is about open and honest discussions then it should have been on both or neither.

    • Aaaaaaaaaargh

      On the other hand, Hugh links to the previous article right at the beginning of his post and references it several times.

      • Randy

        Referencing the other post is not the same as putting the disclaimer in this post. Putting it in the other post seems that RCL has a firm stance and while they will allow for the discussion, they are, in essence, stating that they are fully accepting and affirming LGBT.
        I would prefer it to be an open discussion on a very difficult and sensitive subject.

    • Drew

      Randy,

      I also noticed that immediately.  I think it’s very telling of where most of the RLC’s are coming from.

  • Matt

    This is great. The Red Letter Christians are in a “Who Can Be More Liberal” showdown. Is it my birthday already? Thanks for this gift.

    Oh, and to say that anything you wrote above is based on the Bible is pretty much heresy. Please come back to reality, we’ve missed you here. I would try to give a legit response but your post was so backward and wrong it doesn’t really deserve one.

    • Geoff

      Everyone else seems to be able to discuss this topic in a respectful way. You cannot?

    • Envoy4him

      Discussions here have been great, until your comment, Matt.

  • JoelR

    Well said, my brother.  Well said.

  • Dave

    There certainly is a lot of energy and focus on the homosexuality issue and how does the church respond to the LGBT community.   Conversation and dilalogue are great!  The more I read the more evident it becomes how divided the Body of Christ is on this issue. I pray we are able to hear what each other has to say because somewhere in the midst of it all is truth.  The frontrunners in the church historically have been considered heretics.  I find the theological shifts of our day very interesting.  Until the transition has solidified more, may God find us humbly seeking Him as we work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.

    • FaithfullyFollow

      Thank you for your post!

    • medicalevangelist

      frontrunners have often been considered heretics, but not all heretics are frontrunners.

  • Anonymous

    Well said Hugh. You are right that argument is ultimately not very fruitful (as the comments on both of these posts prove), but it is worthwhile to stand up and be clear that you have recognized the work of the Spirit. There is a hopeful inevitability about this conversation because God is at work. Regardless of what anyone says or believes God is calling LGBTQ persons into ministry and God is blessing LGBTQ relationships and no one is in a position to thwart God.

    • Jcorey006

      To say that God is calling LGBTQ person into ministry and God is blessing LGBTQ relationships is basically saying He’s a idot and can’t even stick to his own standards… I get something totally different when I read Romans 1:18-32 Romans 12:1-2; 1Corinthians 5:1-13; 1Corinthians 6:12-20; 1Corinthians 7; 2Corinthians 7:1; Ephesians 4:17-32; Ephesians 5:1-20; Colossians 3: 1-25; 1Thessalonica 4:1-8; 2Timothy 3:1-17; 1Peter 1:1-6; 1John 2:24-29; 1John 3:1-24

      • Anonymous

        Nope it’s saying that WE are idiots trying to find any standard to enforce but the very one that God continually lifts up – love neighbor and enemy.

        • Drew

          Clark, I would focus your Bible studies on getting a better appreciation on how scripture fits together.

          Luke 13:1-9 has a simple message – to paraphrase it, “repent or die.”  Sometimes, love is not all flowers and candy.  Love doesn’t always make one feel good and fuzzy inside.  In fact, Jesus’ message ultimately led to people hating him and killing him.

          So, to say essentially that loving your neighbor means you can’t point out Scripture and that you can’t correct your brother, is not only contrary to Scripture itself (read Paul and Jesus on this topic), but misses the point of “love” entirely

          • Anonymous

            Drew, I appreciate the recommendation. As a pastor who preaches every week, and teaches two bible studies I have plenty of appreciation for how scripture is wonderfully multivocal.

            I didn’t say that loving your neighbor means you can’t point out scripture or correct each other. I’m engaged right now in correcting a misreading of scripture as I understand it. I said that the command to love neighbor serves also as a basis for judging the righteousness of a relationship. If a relationship leads to greater love for neighbor then it is consistent with God’s will whatever its outward characteristic (married, friends, same-gender, etc…).

          • Keith Carr61

            Where do you preach?? What church?? In SF? I really would like to know if thats possible

          • Aaaaaaaaaargh

            There are millions of Christians in America alone who support gay marriage.  I hesitate to name denominations because doubtless you will immediately scream “They’re not REAL Christians!”  But they too follow the teachings of Christ and the Bible.

          • Drew

            This is a good secular theory, but I really don’t see any support in scripture for this theory.  I also think this is a faulty argument.  There are many polygamists who would argue just as vehemently as you are and use the same theory (relationship lead to greater love for neighbor).  After all, polygamy is among consenting, willing adults, and I bet you could find polygamist relationships that lead to greater love for neighbor.

          • Anonymous

            It isn’t a secular theory. I just argued for it from scripture. You won’t find a more dominant theme in the NT than love of neighbor.

            Polygamists have better scriptural basis for their position than you do for opposing LGBTQ relationships afterall the default marital arrangement throughout scripture is polygamy. Where it fails the “love your neighbor” test is that in most cases it is not practiced by consenting adults, but men marry little girls much younger than themselves.

          • Drew

            Clark, in the words of Ric, perhaps that is your cultural biases and fears playing a role.  I’m sure that’s the case in some cases, but not in many cases of Polygamy.

            “Command to love neighbor serves also as a basis for judging the righteousness of a relationship.”  That is unscriptural and false.  The Bible talks a lot about sexuality and relationships.  Trying to invalidate scripture by pointing to “love thy neighbor” is intellectually lazy.  If I give my neighbor drugs, is that loving my neighbor?  They might love it, they might see me as a good person, and if a vague understanding of “love” is your only guidance, then it might be okay.  However, other scripture defines love, defines what’s good and bad, and you have to take all of that into account.

          • Doug

            Excellent compassionate yet firm response cutting to the core of the issue. Well spoken Drew.

      • Doug

        Exactly Jcorey006 , exactly. Well spoken.

        and woe to those who call evil good and good evil. Ezekial.

    • Keith Carr61

      total BS
      You may have a group that is ignoring the issue of sin and high fiving each other becasue they have ignored what God has to say about the issue…That proves nothing about fruitfulness and God’s bllessing thier ministry. Do you really think that God is endorsing GAY lifestyles for his sake????????????/  Blasphemy

    • Doug

      God is blessing LGBTQ relationships ???? Your kidding right ? Everywhere in the bible homosexual sex is condemned. In your world is he blessing adulterous relationships too ?
      You need to stand up for the word of God not popularity with the world.

      If God intended to bless homosexual relationships he’d have given men a self lubricating anus.
       

      • http://aredemptionofhope.blogspot.com Ally C

        Unbelievable.

        If by “everywhere in the bible homosexual sex is condemned”, you mean to say, six verses out of thousands of the Bible suggest that perhaps at one time certain homosexual acts were taboo, then yes- you would be correct.

        And if by “If God intended to bless homosexual relationships he’d have given men a self lubricating anus”, you mean to say that anyone who cannot produce enough natural lubrication for sexuality activity shouldn’t have sex, then again your point might make sense.

        Then again, if it were in your interest to have a logical (and respectful) discussion, you might realize that the majority of gay men do not have gay sex, and even if they did, the particulars of one’s sexual behaviors do not constitute the whole of one’s ontological being. Those of us in the LGBTQ community have social, emotional, and spiritual needs and wants apart from our sexual behaviors just as you, a heterosexual man, do. Please keep that in mind.

        • Doug

          Ally , look I dont have a beef with you per se. You seem like a nice lady to me and as brother and sister in the Lord we should be respectful so on that we could agree. However I have to diasagree with your logic. You assert that the verses were ‘one time’ taboo. That is sorry to say just so wrong. If that argument has value then in the same context incest or adultery could now be okay. You are cherry picking what behaviours are ‘one time taboo’.
          As for your lubrication argument again just so misplaced. If someone cannot produce enough lubrication that is a deficiency in an otherwise Godly design. You cannot seriously be claiming that two men having anal sex is God’s design can you ? The anus is not designed for sex, much to the angst of gay men ( and even str8 couples ! ).
          The remainder of your point is straw man fallacy as I never claimed homosexuals were purely sexual , please find such a claim supporting that assertion if  you can.
          However inspite of our differences I wish you the best and wish I could treat you to a Starbucks coffee.
          best wishes, Doug

          • http://aredemptionofhope.blogspot.com Ally C

            Let’s be honest, k? We all “cherry pick”. Incest and adultery are still wrong because they hurt people. That i find no attraction in men doesn’t hurt anyone.

            In regard to what i said about lubrication– my point was– most gay men *don’t* have anal sex, so *your* original point about the lack of lubrication in the anus was illogical.

            And finally, you may not outright claim those of us in the LGBTQ community are purely sexual, but your inability to discuss this matter without graphic descriptions of a single sex act (that most gay men don’t do, and some heterosexual couples do) seems to suggest that you do see us in only sexual terms.

          • Doug

            We all cherry pick ? Yes quite possible.

            everywhere in the bible homosexual sex is condemned” because that is simply not true. ”

            Please provide evidence to the contrary. And not silly musings about David and Jonathon / Ruth and Naomi. Find me something credible please.

            As for gay men and anal sex – well if it were so natural God would provide another organ/s dedicated to sexual pleasure for them then right ? Which is ?

            Sorry Ally but your being disingenious here because if most gay men dont do anal sex then the higher incidence of anal and lower bowel cancer in gay men wouldnt exist. Not to mention gay bowel syndrome, anal warts etc which are vastly over represented in the gay community compared to the straight.

            And again you retreat to the strawman re my describing gays as one dimensional which again I deny.

          • http://aredemptionofhope.blogspot.com Ally C

            (this will be my final reply to you, as it feels you refuse to see any perspective but your own views)

            i do not need to prove the Bible affirms gay and lesbian relationships, just that your statement “everywhere in the bible gay sex is condemned” is false. Scripture speaks more to the way God’s followers love others and seek justice than it does about homosexual relationships. Six verses, again, do not constitute “everywhere in the bible”.

            Most gay men do not have anal sex- per a recent study by the University of Indiana. Here is a link to an article about that study: homepages.indiana.edu/web/page/normal/20022.html. Many gay men do not have anal sex– so to speak of that one sexual act as though all gay men do, is in fact, disingenuous on your part.

            And as i said earlier, your inability to discuss this without graphic descriptions of sexual acts reveals that you see us in as one dimensional. This isn’t a  straw man argument, just a simple observation. It’s quite possible to make your case without such descriptions.

          • Doug

            Hi Ally
            “i do not need to prove the Bible affirms gay and lesbian relationships, just that your statement “everywhere in the bible gay sex is condemned” is false.”Sorry I find those statements frankly astonishing. Either you can’t or won’t provide a case which is really surprising given that this is the core aspect of the issue here. I’ve asked you to provide evidence that homosexual relationships are either neutral or supported in the Bible and you refuse. Okay you don’t have to provide evidence however it is remarkable given the assertions you are making.Re your study and my points – well your webpage is interesting and your point follows from that however the wider incidence of gay bowel syndrome and anal cancer, anal warts etc in the MSM community portrays a different story. You are resorting to strawman though as I have repeatedly told you I do not see the gay community as one dimensional. I made the earlier point that ‘the parts dont fit’ you have latched on to this and made it into a more major issue in the discussion Ally. And where you get ‘graphic descriptions of sexual acts ‘ is a mystery to me. I’ve looked over our past posts and other than the reference to anal sex itself I see no ‘graphic descriptions of sexual acts.’I respect your right to call halt to our discussions though, if that is your wish. Presumably as Christians this is where the rubber meets the road and ideas conflict. Can I finish with the obsevation that I suspect you are a really nice lady, we just happen to disagree. Still wish I could treat you to a coffee at Starbucks and in spite of our differences wish you well.God bless, Dougi do not need to prove the Bible affirms gay and lesbian relationships, just that your statement “everywhere in the bible gay sex is condemned” is false.”Sorry I find those statements frankly astonishing. Either you can’t or won’t provide a case which is really surprising given that this is the core aspect of the issue here. I’ve asked you to provide evidence that homosexual relationships are either neutral or supported in the Bible and you refuse. Okay you don’t have to provide evidence however it is remarkable given the assertions you are making.Re your study and my points – well your webpage is interesting and your point follows from that however the wider incidence of gay bowel syndrome and anal cancer, anal warts etc in the MSM community portrays a different story. You are resorting to strawman though as I have repeatedly told you I do not see the gay community as one dimensional. I made the earlier point that ‘the parts dont fit’ you have latched on to this and made it into a more major issue in the discussion Ally. And where you get ‘graphic descriptions of sexual acts ‘ is a mystery to me. I’ve looked over our past posts and other than the reference to anal sex itself I see no ‘graphic descriptions of sexual acts.’I respect your right to call halt to our discussions though, if that is your wish. Presumably as Christians this is where the rubber meets the road and ideas conflict. Can I finish with the obsevation that I suspect you are a really nice lady, we just happen to disagree. Still wish I could treat you to a coffee at Starbucks and in spite of our differences wish you well.God bless, Doug

  • The Burner

    There seems like there needs to be some amount of tension held between the two issues–you know, the kind of tension that Christians have to deal with regarding now/not-yet of the Kingdom, etc.

    To say that the Bible clearly endorses a “whatever two people agree on” stance is not holding the issue in tension, and it seems kind of lazy to abandon the effort to do so.

    • Anonymous

      Why does this meme keep popping up that those supporting LGBTQ inclusion are crazy sexual anarchists who believe everyone should just do whatever they want? This is not what Hugh or anyone serious that I know of has said. On the contrary progressive sexual ethicists raise the bar for what can be considered morally good sexual interaction.

      I’ll try to explain briefly. The traditional christian sexual ethic is deontological – it offers rules which have to be followed. The basic rule is “no sex outside marriage between 1 man and 1 woman”. Superficially this seems like a high standard because it excludes all kinds of things, but in truth it only defines the context where sex is permissible and says nothing at all about what makes sex itself either moral or immoral. It is binary and therefore results in equal approval of all sex within marriage and equal disapproval of all sex outside marriage.

      This is absurd! A pair of 24 year olds having safe mutually consenting sexual relations after dating for 6 months is not the same as a child being raped. A wife giving grudging or even fearful sex to her abusive husband is not the same as a married couple where the sex is respectful and results in mutual pleasure.

      When Hugh says that our sexual ethic stems from the Biblical principle of love for neighbor he is not saying that two people (or three or four) can do whatever they want. Far from it. He is saying that ALL sex MUST live up to the standard of love, which is very high. You must never have sex unless that sex has the best interests of the other fully in view, and never with any element of coercion or manipulation. You must never have sex where there is a significant power differential since equality is a prerequisite of free and holy love. You must never have sex when that sex is a betrayal of another person since that would violate love. etc… etc… 

      • Jcorey006

        I could agree if you could show me in God’s word where same sex is actually approved by God. I see where its clear for husband [man] and wife [woman] but no where on husband and husband or wife and wife. I was a homosexual for nearly 30 years and wanted badly to find one scripture to support my descison in staying in the lifestyle, not to mention the pulling on my heart to change my life, I still wanted that evidence. If you can’t show me in his Word about something, then a strangers voice I will not follow, because his sheep knows his voice.

        • Anonymous

          You’re still going about it wrong. You’re trying to read scripture like it’s a car manual or something. “Refer to page x for what to do if your alternator is on the fritz.” Show me where in scripture cell phones are approved of? Scripture doesn’t work that way nor was it ever intended to.

          But you can find in the scripture many many examples of God breaking whatever religious rules seemed to be in force in order to re-emphasize the more important principle of love for neighbors and enemies. You can find throughout the New Testament examples of the same liberating movement to demonstrate the universality of God’s mission beyond boundaries of tribe, religion, gender, class and so on. And form Jesus’ own mouth you can find many examples of condemnation for those who followed the letter of a law, but failed to love their neighbor.

          • Drew

            Clark,

            You don’t even have to get past the first Chapter of Psalms to read this -

            “Blessed is the one…  but whose delight is in the law of the LORD, and who meditates on his law day and night.  That person is like a tree planted by streams of water, which yields its fruit in season and whose leaf does not wither— whatever they do prospers.”

            You are correct that the Bible doesn’t answer every single question we may have about every single topic.  However, it is painfully clear that it is a manual on how to live your life and a place to get guidance, and that it is meant to be read and studied constantly and carefully.  There actually is a “car manual” feel to it, especially Proverbs.

          • Anonymous

            It is meant to be studied constantly and carefully, agreed. And every trip into scripture is profitable – much more like art than a manual. It reveals new facets all the time, and is rarely straightforward. There are definitely laws in there, but then you’ll find another spot in scripture that turns around and suggests a different way of handling the same situation. Should jubilee be practiced every 7 years or every 49? The law conflicts, but the principle that systems of domination should be overturned and debt forgiven is strong.

          • Drew

            Show me a spot in the Bible where you are confused and I will try to help you.

          • Anonymous

            Bless your heart.

          • Keith Carr61

            Drew, You are trying to reason with a “preacher” lol that is not only condoning gay lifestyles but actually says that they are being blessed and encouraged by the same God that tells you and I something totally different. The ignorance here is the ignorance of not being able to interpret simple things that have already been decided by God. If you give him time enough he will tell you that God didnt necessarily create the world either. It is fruitless to argue with such misguided intellect.

          • Aaaaaaaaaargh

            Keith, I’m glad you’re finally getting out of your bubble and meeting Christians who don’t believe the same thing as you.

          • Doug

            ‘love for neighbors and enemies’ is scriptural , homosexuality is not. That is the point.

  • Geoff

    Hugh, are you making the argument that a person cannot participate fully in church life unless they are married?

    And how would you then respond to “having mutually consenting sex as an expression of [...] love” (but not commitment), outside of marriage? Does this theological framework change our stance there?

  • Geoff

    Hugh, are you making the argument that a person cannot participate fully in church life unless they are married?

    And how would you then respond to “having mutually consenting sex as an expression of [...] love” (but not commitment), outside of marriage? Does this theological framework change our stance there?

  • FaithfullyFollow

    Being a striaght female, I have no idea what a gay men or women go through daily! I think that if we all focused on ourselves and our own stumblings and sins, the world would be a better place. But, we have to go through tribulations and trials in this life to bring us to the many beautiful blessings to come!  I do not think its okay for us as people (carnel and flesh) to judge and raise ourselves above others.  We can’t forget the plank that is in our eye, when our brother or sister only have a speck! People put limits on God and taint the beauty of His overwhelming love for ALL of us! We are all His children. I am not saying that living in a sinful lifestyle is right. I am not saying that living against what God has laid out for us to is right. But, I am saying that its not for me or anyone else to judge or use God as a personal weapon agianst His own children. Warnings about  judging non-believers and believers is taught through out the Bible! I know someday we will stand before God and the throne of His judgment.  We will all have to answer as to why we lived the way we did and why we loved those “like us” and not the ones that “needed us and not like us”. It will not matter what our lips say or our opinion of our lives, it will be all in our hearts. Love is the most important gift that God has given us. Is says that many times in His word. Love and Compassion!! We love God because God loved us all 1st, without His love we would not know love.  But, since there are always going to be those who feel they are suppose to judge or have the right given to them to judge, and they admit to having no faults of there own go ahead and throw that 1st stone. 

    • Jcorey006

      You know some of the phrophets were warned that destruction would fall on them if they didn’t give the warning of disobedience. We are instructed to judge, but in a loving way. Eli died because he didn’t do anything about his grown sons sinful activities. I should love you enough to warn you that your sin has consequences, you should love me enought to the same. We’ve even been instructed that those who are more spiritually stronger to help those who are spiritually weaker, how is that possiable if the person’s sin isn’t pointed out

      • FaithfullyFollow

        I agree with you and the points you made when it comes to believers.. great points!

  • http://ricbooth.wordpress.com/ Ric Booth

    You can make a much stronger textual case against woman preaching or
    divorce or in favor of slavery or women being submissive than you can
    against same gender relationships. Each time we have faced one of these
    issues, we have thought it prudent to disregard Biblical precedent in
    favor of Biblical principle.

    This is a most excellent point.

    • Jcorey006

      Ric Booth we are new testament christians, no where in the new testament or the old testament do you find God approving sin. Nor will you find that he wants us to stay in sin. At some time or another you have to make a descision on whether or not you’re going to follow the examples of Christ or continue to stay in your sin. Most people haven’t been taught that they be like Jesus, so we follow the examples of men instead of tryintg to follow the example of Jesus. Even if I miss it sometimes, what’s better trying to imatate Jesus or not doing anything at all or better yet continue to follow the devil.

      • http://ricbooth.wordpress.com/ Ric Booth

        Jcorey, I am in agreement with your comment.

        • Doug

          Then why condone the sin of homosexual sex ?

    • Doug

      Sorry Ric but that is absolute nonsense.
      It says two men lying together ie having sex is an abomination. In each of the 5 places in the bible where homosexual sex is mentioned it is described negatively ( sometimes as an abomination). Where does it say women not being submissive is an abomination ? In ancient Israel ‘slavery’ was more akin to ‘indentured service’ , ie you sold yourself into it. That is hardly an ‘abomination’.
      Sorry but you are very very wrong.

      • http://ricbooth.wordpress.com/ Ric Booth

        Doug, your comment reminds me of me before I took it upon myself to do my own research.

        You actually point out the flaws with the modern bible translations in your attempt to defend modern bible translations. You argue that the term slavery meant something completely different way back then and should not be compared to modern institutions of slavery, which are, of course, abominations. The term homosexual was added to our modern translations beginning in the late 1950s.

        So either the two terms, “slavery” and “homosexual” in our modern translations are fair and literally accurate terms OR they fail to convey key subtle nuances and must be explained beyond our current understanding of those terms. If the former is true, your point is irrelevant. If the latter is true, we need to humbly accept that cultural fears influenced the prior generation’s translation attempts.

        Before we go around ostracizing 5% of the planet, we better be absolutely sure that the terms added to our bibles in 1950-something are accurately and precisely conveying the meaning of the original text. If we find instances where this is not the case (i.e., slavery), we need to have the courage to challenge their word choice elsewhere as well.

        • Aaaaaaaaaargh

          Yes, yes.  We need more understanding like this.  What we now call “homosexuality” is a social construction that would have been understood very differently even two hundred years ago.  When we read translated terms as literal, face-value transpositions that equate millennia-old concepts with our current understanding, we step into anachronism.  

          I can’t believe that we are making such an issue out of about ten verses when there are so many subjects that the Bible speaks on far more extensively.

        • Doug

          You’re dancing on thin ice here Ric -
          Romans 1:27
          New International Version (©1984)In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. New Living Translation (©2007)
          And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved. English Standard Version (©2001)
          and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. New American Standard Bible (©1995)
          and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
          And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.What is so difficult to understand about that ?It is blatently clear male-male sex is not approved of and is sinful.

  • http://profiles.google.com/djmoonw David Moon-Wainwright

    Well said! Thank you!

  • Jcorey006

    Being one who used to be a homosexual for over 20 years or more, I will have to disagree. No where in the bible do God approves of homosexuality, adultery, fornication, prostitution,lieing, stealing, unforgiveness…etc Because of one man [Adam] disobedience all were born in sin and shaped in iniquity, because of one man [Jesus] obedience all can be born again and live a regenerated life. We don’t have to stay the way we are, we choose whether or not we want to continue live a old life of defeat or a new birth life of victory. Jesus came to save, set free and deliver….save us from what, set us free from what, deliver us from what? Should be the questions we ask. I don’t want a God who can’t change me from a fallin [sin] state…why would I need him if he can’t or isn’t possiable. A mere person can never understand this, it takes having a relationship with Holy Spirit, being filled with Holy Spirit to see or understand. Jesus said Holy Spirit will lead and guide us into all truth and its the truth that will make us free. No where in the bible have I seen same sex marriages, so do God honor same sex marriages and if you’re not married then do he honor a un-married same sex relationship? These are concerns and questions that should be ask. There are instructions on how a husband should honore and love his wife as Christ loves the church and how the wife should honore her husband, but where are the instructions on same sex marriages? In the sexual relationships I had with men, I had to do un-natural things before engagement, I would like to believe that God who created the universe is a bit more creative and would have given natural means for engagement without one having to create their own. Humans are highly intelligent then animals, animals don’t even mate with the same sex…because its un-natural and serves as no purpose. Sex between man [husband] and woman [wife] was intended for pleasure and pro-creation only within the institution of marriage, anything outside of that is sexual sin [perversion, immortality]. One of the greatest tools in styuding God’s word is THE NEW STRONG’S CONCORDANCE…certain words in the bible you have to get the Hebrew and Greek meaning and some translation are hard to understand, but ultimately you can’t understand the bible at all without Holy Spirit. Most people fall in the danger of being destroyed because of a lack of knowledge…they think they know God, and they’ve heard of Jesus, but don’t have a clue of the ministry of Holy Spirit.

  • Stacy

    AMEN!!

  • Pierrekeys

    I don’t believe the previous author implied that the church shouldn’t be inclusive with accepting ppl of the LGBT community. He says that we should not affirm their lifestyle based on bibical principles. Why do ppl continually impose their opinion on this issue in scripture ? Let’s love them, but the Church should not be affirming gay marriages or affirming gay relationships just as the church should not affirm a heterosexual relationship where fornication is involved. Where do we draw the line ?

  • aharshman

    Paul says in 1 Corinthians 5:

    1 It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has (A)his father’s wife. 2 [a]You (B)have become [b]arrogant and [c]have not (C)mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be (D)removed from your midst.

    3 For I, on my part, though (E)absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. 4 (F)In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and [d]I with you in spirit, (G)with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 I have decided to (H)deliver such a one to (I)Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in (J)the day of the Lord [e]Jesus.

    6 (K)Your boasting is not good. (L)Do you not know that (M)a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough? 7 Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our (N)Passover also has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us celebrate the feast, (O)not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
    9
     I wrote you in my letter (P)not to associate with immoral people; 10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with (Q)idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. 11 But [f]actually, I wrote to you not to associate [g]with any so-called (R)brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or (S)an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging (T)outsiders? (U)Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13 But those who are outside, God [h]judges. (V)REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.

    Hugh Hollowell says: My understanding of Biblical Christianity leads me to believe that all Christians are my brother and my sister – whether black or white, gay or straight, transgendered or cisgendered. ALL are one in Christ Jesus.

    and

    I know this will not satisfy those who want to pick the Bible apart for rules and regulations, but that’s nothing new – Jesus talked about those who strained gnats and swallowed camels, who focused on letters instead of spirit and intent.

    In short, I feel, as a result of Biblical principle and conscience, that to be less than fully inclusive is to participate in less than the fullness of the Gospel. In my reading of scripture, to actively oppose the full inclusion of LGBT Christians is an act that is less than Christian. In fact, I would argue that when we erect categories that preclude people from fully participating in the life of the church (and marriage is part of the life of the church) we are working against the in-breaking of the Kingdom of God on earth and we deny the very testimony of the resurrection of Christ.

    My question would be: How are we as Christians to deal with sin in the church? Do we love the person and their sin or just love the person while show them that their sin is wrong?

    Paul says that we shouldn’t even associate with a brother who is caught up in sin. We are to judge those who are a part of the church.

  • http://twitter.com/Selaniest Jeff Selan

    Great job Hugh. Great work. Great ministry. 

  • Benmanben

    Love and sex are two different things.

    I don’t see much use in going any further than this, as it seems silly to go on until detail about how I specifically feel.

  • http://jesusjusticeandjargon.blogspot.com/ Schuyler Stallcup

    Thanks for your words, Hugh. I understand both sides of this conversation and feel that both are earnest and can be backed Biblically. 

    I did have one problem with your last point: “If you are married, and I told you the only way you could be fully right with and love God was to leave your partner and be celibate forever, would you see that as Good News?”

    There are valid arguments for the affirmation homosexual marriage, but this is not one. The Good News can not be diminished by anything. If God told me that I needed to leave my wife in order to be fully right with him, I would do it in a heart beat. I have faith that God loves me and knows what is best for me and so if He wants me to do something, I’m gonna try to do it even if I don’t understand it. That’s what makes the Good News so great; that God loves us so much that he wants to save us from ourselves and from our logic that  doesn’t always cause us to make choices that are truly best for ourselves. So if a homosexual brother or sister interprets the Scriptures as saying that God is calling us away from lives of homosexual behavior, then they should be absolutely willing to do that (and I know many who have committed themselves to lives of celibacy after coming to this conclusion), even if they don’t understand, because if they are Christ followers they should have the faith to follow Jesus into the dark. 

    Now if a homosexual brother or sister is earnestly and openly reading the scriptures and does not come away with that interpretation, then they shouldn’t feel the need to change. We all have to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. But if they were to come to the conclusion that God does not desire for us to engage in that sort of behavior and then to say, “It doesn’t make sense to me and doesn’t seem that ‘good’ so I’m just gonna ignore it,” that would be being unfaithful to the Gospel. 

    Thanks again for the read, brother.
    Peace.

  • http://aredemptionofhope.blogspot.com Ally C

    As a lesbian who still struggles to reconcile her faith and her identity, i’d just like to say–

    a) Hugh, thank you.

    b) Please, can we remember that there is so much more to the ontological existance of the LGBTQ community than sexual acts? We all want love, someone to share our joys and sorrows– this extends far beyond the bedroom.

    c) Hugh, again, thank you.

  • Faith

    I really feel that many would benefit from reading the following books: “The Church and the Homosexual”, “Taking a Chance On God” and “Freedom, Glorious Freedom” by Father John McNeill. He is a gay priest of the Jesuit Order, though he was excommunicated for his beliefs in the late 80′s. Either way, he is a delightful and honest person who writes from a place of personal knowledge and experience in living as a gay man. He struggled for years with self-hate because he was taught that being gay meant being hated by God. Through God’s grace and mercy he was able to overcome self-hate and learn to love himself. He has a saying, “Good theology results in good psychology, bad theology results in bad psychology.” 

    When I read scripture, specifically the RED LETTERS, I see a God who was quick to love. I see a God who was not caught up in the do’s and don’ts of scripture. I see a God who raised the dead on the Sabbath and then told the Pharisees where they could shove it. I see a God who was most interested in the heart of a man/woman. I also see a God that never makes any mention of homosexuality. 

    I cannot, for the life of me, understand why this is such a huge issue. The scriptures are ambiguous about homosexuality and yet we have drawn a line in the sand. I don’t see any lines in the sand over whether we should be stoning adulterers, or if we should be making the victim marry her rapist, dividing ourselves based on who wears mixed fiber clothing and who does not, those who shave their faces and those who grow beards, and etc. Following the letter of the law will nearly always make you miss the spirit of the law. 

    I thank Hugh for his courage to write this and I do hope that one of these days we can all be enlightened and illuminated in the truth more and more. Also, please stop being condescending and belittling. No one, and I mean no one, has it all figured out. Pride comes before a fall. 

  • Helen J

    Hello everyone:
    Hugh, bless your ministry.
    The position you advocate is already the operating philosophy of churches like Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches, and some Episcopical churches. If you truly believe the apostle Paul’s black letter words no longer represent God’s view of homosexual activity, you would feel comfortable at one of those churches.
    But consider, how would you minister with integrity to a gay Christians who are convicted that Paul’s words do represent God’s view of it as impure?

    While I agree with you that a loving church would include Ally C, and John Fischer, and gay couples (that is, be inclusive) I question why religious consecration of gay couples is a needful condition for a church to be inclusive. I think a lot of Christians love their gay friends and neighbors, and would like them to feel unthreatened at church. I think this can be done by the principle of “Love covers over many sins” within the fellowship of believers, and a principle of dispensation whereby the church agrees to not require the disbanding of a couples in a same sex civil union; the same way the church would not require the disbanding of a divorced (reason other than adultery)-remarried couple. This is not affirmation of gay couples, and that is my point. When the church starts affirming gay couples, the message it sends to people like John Fishcher is that he has a false consciousness about God’s standards of purity, and I do not think you can sell this message to most evangelical Christians.
    I suspect John Fishcher might not be happy with the above proposal on the basis that any form of accepting gay couples is wrong. If so, I would ask if this judgment is on the basis of John dialoguing with any gay couples who strive to follow Christ.

  • cathy

    If one Prays to God – God will set your heart in the direction  it should go…. Love thy Neighbor as thy self and love God above all else.  If you learn nothing else from the bible learn this and you have learned enough. 

    • Cathy

      Thank you Hugh for the wonderful article!

  • Charlie

    Ignorant response to the issue. Your claim to understand “biblical Christianity” fell way short. You let your own personal opinion justify people openly engaging in homosexual relations. Didn’t see much of what God has to say in your post. Your whole point was that we should be inclusive as opposed to people committed to becoming more like Christ.

    You cannot be a “gay” Christian any more than you can be a “lying,” “adulterous,” or “drunk” Christian. Why would you ever qualify the title of a Christ follower with a sinful adjective or description?? You’re either a Christian or you’re not. Period. 

    “In Christ, he said, there is no longer slave or free, Jew or Greek, male or female, we are all one in Christ Jesus.” He’s talking about some serious cultural and social divides here that Christ completely broke down. These categories aren’t sinful. When we speak about homosexual relations, we bring a sinful label to the argument. God’s position on sin is clear: have nothing to do with it. So your point is invalid.

    If you read the bible, you find that relations between an man and man or woman and woman are spoken against frequently. If one chooses to hold on to these things, how is that honoring God? Are you saying your desires should trump what God says? By clinging to homosexual relations, you are essentially saying, “My way is better than God’s. I don’t want to be made new, I want God to listen to me and accept me for who I am.” Sorry, that’s not what God calls us to do when we become Christians. We are called to come and die to ourselves so that we can be made more and more to be like Christ, holy and set apart.

    Your last questions were set up for your own success. “Would you rather be on the side of love or power?” I don’t think that’s the issue here. We are called to love all people, yes and amen. That doesn’t mean we affirm everything they do, especially when it is contrary to scripture.

    And seriously? Your question: “If you are married, and I told you the only way you could be fully
    right with and love God was to leave your partner and be celibate
    forever, would you see that as Good News?” Huge stretch.

  • http://nailtothedoor.blogspot.com Dan Martin

    Hugh, I appreciate your comments and the spirit in which you made them.  I also don’t see an argument as fruitful, but I would like to understand the ramifications of one point you make.  You said in these two paragraphs:


    So, I can hear the author of the previous post ask, where is our
    sexual ethic to be found? In Biblical principle, not precedent. Jesus
    tells us to love our neighbor and to do to others what we want done to
    us. Is cheating on my partner wrong? Yes, because it is not how I would
    wish to be treated, and it is not loving toward my partner. It has
    nothing to do with my or my potential bedmate’s genitals.

    Is having sex with a child wrong? Yes, because the child cannot
    consent, and thus it is an occasion of of power and coercion, neither
    of which is loving or how we would wish to be treated. Are two people
    (of any gender or orientation) having mutually consenting sex as an
    expression of their love and commitment wrong? It is loving and how I
    want my sexual relationships to work, so no, it is not.

    By this logic, I would see you counseling a heterosexual couple who love each other, who are faithful to each other, but who have chosen not (yet at least) to get married, that their sexual activity is wholly appropriate for the believer.  I would even see a single pastor with a long-time girlfriend being encouraged to live with her but not bother to marry her.  Likewise, if the “love” standard is no longer met, that couple could separate and then identify new partners who they love, and carry on the same serially-monogamous, loving relationships with new partners.  None of these things seem to me proscribed by your standard.

    Am I correct in my interpretation?  If not, why not?

    Peace!

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  • Doug Sloan

    The following extended quote is excerpted from an article by Richard Elliot Friedman and Shawna Dolansky, authors of The Bible Now:
     
    We are scholars, not politicians. Our job isn’t to score points for a side, push an agenda or to re-size the Bible to fit our personal views.
     
    So here’s the text and a summary of the evidence:
     
    “You shall not lay a male the layings of a woman; it is a to’ebah” (offensive thing)
    – Leviticus 18:22.
     
    “And a man who will lay a male the layings of a woman: the two of them have done a to’ebah (offensive thing). They shall be put to death. Their blood is on them”
    – Leviticus 20:13.
     
    We acknowledged that many people have recognized that these two texts pretty clearly do prohibit at least some kinds of male-male sex … The law really means what pretty much everyone has taken it to mean for centuries. Whatever view one takes, one must address the law fairly in terms of what it says.
     
    So we sought to contribute another perspective that we believe can be helpful on this subject. The text identifies male homosexual acts by the technical term to’ebah, translated in English here as “an offensive thing” or in older translations as “an abomination.” This is important because most things that are forbidden in biblical law are not identified with this word. In both of the contexts in Leviticus (chapters 18 and 20), male homosexuality is the only act to be called this. (Other acts are included broadly in a line at the end of chapter 18.) So this term, which is an important one in the Bible in general, is particularly important with regard to the law about male homosexual acts.
     
    The question is: Is this term to’ebah an absolute, meaning that an act that is a to’ebah is wrong in itself and can never be otherwise? Or is the term relative – meaning that something that is a to’ebah to one person may not be offensive to another, or something that is a to’ebah in one culture may not be offensive in another, or something that is a to’ebah in one generation or time period may not be offensive in another – in which case the law may change as people’s perceptions change?
     
    When one examines all the occurrences of this technical term in the Hebrew Bible, one finds that elsewhere the term is in fact relative. For example, in the story of Joseph and his brothers in Genesis, Joseph tells his brothers that, if the Pharaoh asks them what their occupation is, they should say that they’re cowherds. They must not say that they are shepherds. Why? Because, Joseph explains, all shepherds are an offensive thing (to’ebah) to the Egyptians. But shepherds are not an offensive thing to the Israelites or Moabites or many other cultures. In another passage in that story, we read that Egyptians don’t eat with Israelites because that would be an offensive thing (to’ebah) to them. But Arameans and Canaanites eat with Israelites and don’t find it offensive. See also the story of the Exodus from Egypt, where Moses tells Pharaoh that the things that Israelites sacrifice would be an offensive thing (to’ebah) to the Egyptians. But these things are certainly not an offensive thing to the Israelites.

    Now, one might respond that the law here is different because it concerns an offensive thing to God – and is therefore not subject to the relativity of human values. But that is actually not the case here. The Bible specifically identifies such laws about things that are divine offenses with the phrase “an offensive thing to the LORD” (to’ebat yhwh). That phrase is not used here in the law about male homosexual acts. It is not one of the laws that are identified as a to’ebah to God!
     
    If this is right, then it is an amazing irony. Calling male homosexual acts a to’ebah was precisely what made the biblical text seem so absolutely anti-homosexual and without the possibility of change. But it is precisely the fact of to’ebah that opens the possibility of the law’s change. So, (1) whatever position one takes on this matter, left or right, conservative or liberal, one should acknowledge that the law really does forbid homosexual sex between males but not between females. And (2) one should recognize that the biblical prohibition is not one that is eternal and unchanging. The prohibition in the Bible applies only so long as male homosexual acts are perceived to be offensive. This could involve arguments and evidence from specialists in biology, psychology and culture. They are beyond our range of expertise as Bible scholars. Our task here has been to make the biblical evidence known.
     
    Are Biblical Laws About Homosexuality Eternal?
    Richard Elliot Friedman, Shawna Dolansky
    (authors of “The Bible Now”)
    Huffington Post
    posted 8/1/2011 04:52 PM ET
    retrieved 9/16/2011

  • Patricia Williams

    Thank God for your comments John Fischer. I have been reading many of the articles on this sight and the one thing I see lacking is speaking the “Truth” in love. Sure God is all loving but he is all just as well. I think it would be so wrong to see a brother in sin and not tell him. And I would be extremely grateful for someone to speak the truth to me in love if someone sees something in me that would be offensive to Christ.
    I have tons of sins but I thought and still think that when a person accepts Jesus, we become a new creation in Christ. It takes time to leave sinful patterns of behavior behind but the ones that we cling to should be catagorically classified as idols. Sexual sins that we refuse to give up or as someone mentioned “sacrificed” are nothing more than idols in our clenched fists.
    I felt so sorry for a post left by a man who said he couldn’t be a happy Christian until he went to a gay Church where he felt accepted. We are all welcome to come to the cross, hand over our sins and walk with Jesus in obedience not picking or choosing what we want to obey or not. I think Satan tries to trip so many well intentioned Christians by convincing then of how they feel about things instead of believing in faith the word of God.
    If you really love , speak the truth in love.
    Blessings to all and may the love of Christ reach deeply into your hearts.

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