Why ‘Love the Sinner, Hate the Sin’ Doesn’t Work

Tony Campolo

A few years back I did the below interview with New Direction in which I told the story someone once told to me of a gay son. In it I emphasize the damage of the common statement, “Love the sinner, hate the sin,” especially in regards to homosexuality. It’s time we stop using it:




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Tony Campolo

Tony CampoloTony Campolo is the Founder and President of EAPE and Professor Emeritus of Sociology at Eastern University. Look for Tony in your area and follow him on Facebook and Twitter.View all posts by Tony Campolo →

  • http://yaholo.net/ Yaholo

    “Hate the sin, love the sinner” needs to die out as much as the phrase “tough love.” Ideology becomes irrelevant the more we realize how our theories and assertions affect real people and real lives.

  • Digger

    I refuse to take part in sin and I refuse to condone it when we see it. Sin is to be hated because God hates it (a good example can be found in Rev 2:6); not excused or taken lightly. I try to love sinners by being faithful in witnessing to them of the forgiveness that is available through Jesus Christ. A true act of love is treating someone with respect and kindness even though the person knows you do not approve of their lifestyle and/or choices. It is not loving to allow a person to remain stuck in sin. It is hateful. It is not hateful to tell a person he/she is in sin. It is an act of love. Even though we lack the ability to love perfectly, as God can, and we lack the ability to hate perfectly (in other words, without malice), we are to love the sinner by speaking the truth in love. We hate the sin by refusing to condone, ignore, or excuse it.

    • Val

      You try to love sinners?

      No. Try not. Love, or love not. There is no try. You can’t “try” to love. You either do, or you don’t.

      • Digger

        *waves hand in front of Val* I am not the sinner you are looking for.

        • Val

          *monotone voice * I don’t need to see your identification

      • Chris Gentry

        Val, I love it. It’s a little Star Wars’ish. That’s cool!

        • Val

          I’m a huge Star Wars fan. I have all of the movies, a few of the games, and have read several of the books lol (useless SW trivia: Han and Leia end up married with kids, one of which turns to the dark side). I insert Star Wars references into conversations as often as possible, it amuses me.

          • Chris Gentry

            You are strong in the force . . . Oops, I mean Spirit. :)

          • Val

            Haha. I’m working towards that. I hope to be someday, still shedding old habits. It isn’t easy, and sometimes painful, but necessary to grow.

          • Snommelp

            Psst… hey Val. How do you pick out a “high liturgy” Christian in a crowd of Star Wars fans?

            …when you say “May the Force be with you,” they reply “and also with you.”

    • AR

      Actually, Digger, your version of “love” sounds a whole lot like condescension. No thanks.

      • Frank

        Then you are rejecting Gods love. People don’t get to simply define love on their terms. It accepting how God defines love.

    • bluecenterlight

      So you do not sin?

  • otrotierra

    Thank you Tony Campolo and RLC for prioritizing Jesus in all matters, no matter how politically unfashionable it is to do so.

    • Val

      Very much agree.

    • ishmael

      are you being ironic here?

      • SamHamilton

        Well played.

      • 22044

        :)

      • Frank

        Sadly I am sure it goes right over the heads of those it’s directed at.

        • Martin Peter Clarke

          It certainly does Francis

    • Frank

      Sadly they only seem to prioritize their incomplete version of Jesus. A part of Jesus is not Jesus.

  • Frank

    Love the person is exactly what we need to do but there is no love supporting, condoning, accepting, affirming, celebrating or remaining silent over sinful behavior.

    Tony completely misconstrues the plank in your eye statement. Its not wait until you are without sin to deal with sin in those you love its understand that you are a sinner too first.Recognize it, confess it, repent.

    Having homosexual sex is the least of the problem however. The real problem and the sin that is most damaging is rejecting God’s created order for sexuality and marriage. Its one thing to succumb to lust or sexual attractions its quite another to surrender to it.

    • Martin Peter Clarke

      Not the feckless, blind, absurd, ignorant, helplessly surrendered to sin that heterodoxly says that “the sin that is most damaging is rejecting God’s created order for sexuality and marriage”?

  • wjgreen314

    Is this to say you no longer believe sodomy & homosexual debauchery are sins? If not why not?

    If you still believe they’re sins are they “unique” sins NOT to be hated while all others still are? Why or why not?

    Are any sins other than our own to be hated? If not, is there then no further role or responsibility of disciples of Jesus to call others to REPENTANCE from sin?

    Does no one within the church every successfully remove their own plank from their eyes SUFFICIENT to yank other others’ specks? IF not, why did Jesus preach this?

    It can NO LONGER be claimed that homosexuals are “born that way,” despite Lady Gaga’s popularity.

    The presence of identical twins, one of whom is a practicing homosexuality and the other not; bisexuals; and the small but growing number of people who have successfully undergone “reparative therapy” offer compelling evidence that homosexual behavior is every bit as much CHOSEN as is heterosexual behavior.

    Mere sexual arousal at the sight of or in the presence of another has NEVER been sufficient justification for engaging in extra-marital heterosexual sex with him or her, never mind homosexual sodomy.

    Is there nothing left to hate among sinful wo/men? If so, then what other option do we have but to love people and love more or less equally their sins?

    • sheryce

      So tell me, when did you choose to be attracted to people of the opposite sex?

      • wjgreen314

        The plain meaning of “attraction” is that it’s an involuntary emotion that can be modulated. I am emotionally attracted to many women but I CHOOSE not to act on those attractions in a sinful way. We are primarily responsible for what we DO & FAIL to do, not what our God-created central nervous systems spring upon us.

        • Martin Peter Clarke

          Not even in your heart, behind your eyes? Wow, Jesus, it’s you!

          • wjgreen314

            Martin, my boy. The heart is a muscle whose primary function is to pump blood. Period — as Obama is wont to say. Any emotions we feel originate in the brain, even if they’re later felt in the chest or genitalia. Without the mind — our wonderfully created God-given brains — there is NO HUMAN LIFE. Those who are brain dead but kept alive on artificial life support are not feeling emotions; the medical community refers to them as “vegetables.” Suffice it to say that any feelings you have do NOT originate in either the left or right ventricle but in portions of your brain and then fan out from there.

            We’re told we have the MIND of Christ and for good reason! To have a heart after God requires the Mind of Christ first.

          • Martin Peter Clarke

            dubberjay pops, I had no idea that I was in the presence of such a mind, THE mind, so I was right, Lord, it IS you! Heart, mind, eyes, crypts of Lieberkuhn, loops of Henle and ascending colon. How do you bear us Lord, in your perfection?

    • Martin Peter Clarke

      We love you with all of yours dubbyerjay.

      • wjgreen314

        “with all yours” refers to my sins. That’s the point. Sins are not loved, the people who commit them are!

        • Martin Peter Clarke

          Don’t you go all charming and self-deprecating on me dubbeyrjay. That’s cheating. People aren’t lovable because of their perfection.

          I love my kids in all their brokenness, desperately, adoringly, unconditionally. When they burn in hell, I’ll be with them.

          On Friday night I was with Tony, a sick, forty something, foul mouthed, homeless, hopeless, doomed, raging, violent alcoholic. He’s so endearing. Moz was there too. He’s worse. Even Tony reckons it. He loves me and know I love him. We’ll keep warm together in hell.

          With Jesus.

          Do pop down.

          • wjgreen314

            You’re HOPING/PLANNING on going to hell; in exchange for whose salvation in heaven?

          • Martin Peter Clarke

            Yours. You’re welcome to it.

          • wjgreen314

            Much Obliged. But Jesus secured mine decades ago. He could do the same for you.

          • Martin Peter Clarke

            Don’t worry, He’ll be with us. You can have heaven all to yourself, just as you like it. You with your perfect mind and heart to keep you warm. I’ll ‘ave me mate Tony, Moz, me kids. And Jesus.

          • wjgreen314

            See you there. You like to claim kinship with Tony. Good on ya. I studied w/ Tony and was in his Small Group back in the mid-’80s. Good times. See you in heaven!

          • Martin Peter Clarke

            Not if I can’t bring Tony and Moz and my kids and Jason and we don’t know what he(?) is apart from being a pain.

  • Brian

    1 Corinthians 13 – verse 2 – “and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.” and then verse 6 defines Love “it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth”. So are we now rejoicing in sin? Well those aren’t red letters, so consider Matthew 24:11-12 “And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12 And because lawlessness (sin) will be increased, the love of many will grow cold.” My concern is this video encourages people to live in sin, and does not address how to lead someone in a sinful lifestyle to the knowledge of repenting from sin and believing in Christ. (Matthew 4:17).

  • Chris Gentry

    Sin is sin, period. God sees all sin as the same; whether it’s cheating, having an affair or homosexuality. However Jesus tells us there is but one Judge and we’re not it. He also tells us not to judge others lest we to are judged in the same manner. Therefore our role is simple. We are called to love. If we do so faithfully, being filled and led by the Spirit, He will convict and change not only us as we live transparent lives in front of our neighbors but also our neighbors through us. I hate the line “love the sinner, hate the sin.” Sounds like judgement to me. This is what I preach from my pulpit and what I choose to live by. Not everyone likes a Post-Modern Pastor who lives his life transparently, even from the pulpit. But hey, I have some pretty cool friends. Some of them are even Gay.

    • Val

      Thank you Pastor. I appreciate you.

      • Chris Gentry

        Thanks Val, I appreciate it. By the way, my friends call me Chris. I think in today’s day and age titles tend to separate us into an us vs. them kind of thing. In all reality we’re just brothers and sisters in Christ. Lol, I can’t imagine asking my twin brother to address me as Pastor Gentry. He has to much dirt on me anyway! We are one body and each part is special. I do appreciate the honor you gave me. Thank you.

        • Val

          Hi Chris! I agree with the titles thing. I respect those too though. If you made your brother call you Pastor he’s probably give you “the look”. lol. You’re very welcome. I really liked your post. Both of them actually! lol.

    • Frank

      There is no love is condoning, affirming, accepting, celebrating or remaining silent about sinful behavior.

      • Chris Gentry

        Which sin? Do you condemn all sin, even speaking white lies, telling your wife that her dress dress doesn’t make her look fat? Do you speed, do you fail to stop at stop signs, do you obey your/ our elected leaders as Commanded by both Jesus and Paul as well as ALL laws that are passed, do you pray for your leaders and elected officials as commanded by Paul or do you mock them, tell jokes about them, slander them? do you or have you lusted in your heart, committed, physically or in your heart violence are you even a little overweight, do you tithe, with a free heart, do you give as the need arises to Christian and non-Christian alike, to pay bills, pay for food, medical care, clothing, heat, water and power? Do you protect the orphan of today or the widow or the the downtrodden?

        We are all in a constant state of sin, hence Mercy and Grace and with these come love. You want to condemn or call out one sin or just some sins? That’s a Pharisee my friend. You condemn all and by doing so condemn yourself. Jesus, when asked what the greatest commandment was said there was two. The second being to love your neighbor. Period. There was no But, there was no caveat. It was simple and to the point. The second greatest commandment from God is to love your neighbor as yourself, Period.

        If you wish to take sin on head first, I’m with you, but first it starts with us. I stated early on that I try to lead a transparent, Spirit filled and Spirit led life. I do not Judge but instead sojourn through life with believer and unbeliever alike. I’ve found that by my actions and through my Spirit led conversations that saint and sinner alike are convicted by the a Spirit of God in me. My job is to be the hands and feet of Jesus. I live in the room of Grace, I have taken my masks off and I am as you see me. I am vile, sinful, lustful, a cheat and a liar. I struggle with anger and rage. But I am forgiven and washed by the blood of the lamb. He transforms daily as I reject conformity. You are more then welcome to sojourn with me in the room of Grace my friend. I would love to get to know you.

        • Frank

          Yes all sins should be condemned.

          You are not loving anyone by not speaking into their life and teaching them Gods will for their life. You are actually practicing hate.

          And if I were you I get back into more study especially about the Pharisees. Calling someone a Pharisee is the most overused and misconstrued charge inChristianity today.

          • Chris Gentry

            I’m not sure where hate comes in. Please explain.

          • Frank

            Leaving people sinning without saying anything, without helping them overcome their sin, leaving them is disobedience to God is the worst act of hate possible.

            Do you believe that homosexual sex is sinful? Do you believe that God created marriage for man and woman?

          • Chris Gentry

            Brother, you’re hung up on one sin. All sin is the same in the eyes of God and is deserving of death. In only one place in scripture are we called to openly confront sin and that is within the church and specific guidelines are laid down as to how to go about it.

            You’re trying to confront sin in the whole world, not just the church. Follow Jesus’s example, he confronted the Pharisees (By the way I’ve studied a lot and even know their origins. I know it’s overused today but that’s because there are a lot of ‘me out there) but gently loved and guided the people. And if you want to get into a Greek or Hebrew translation debate as to actual meaning, I’m game.

          • Frank

            I can’t help but notice that you did not answer my questions. Very telling.

            This was a post by Tony about this sin not others. I comment appropriately.

          • Chris Gentry

            Frank, I’m in bed with a fever. Give me a break for not waiting for you to pontificate. I’m here with an open mind,willing to learn and be corrected through discourse. If you are of the same mind then by all means please continue. If not this conversation is over. Either way let me sleep and please pray with me that this fever breaks and my body heals.

          • Frank

            Hey Chris sorry to hear about your sickness. I will pray for healing and we can continue this conversation at another time.

          • Chris Gentry

            Thank you Frank. Fever just broke. Tired and will need to go to sleep again soon. Anyway, I was thinking that this thread has veered from its original topic to a large degree. If you still want to chat, with an open mind of course, let’s find another thread. Maybe RLC can provide another post were we and others can address the role of the Post Modern Church in addressing sin. Also, thanks to those who we’re praying for me.

          • Chris Gentry

            Hey Frank, sign up on Disqus and send me a personal message, if you don’t mind. I have an idea I want to run by you.

          • Frank

            There is no reason you can’t float your idea here.

          • Chris Gentry

            OK, have it your way. Where do you live? If it’s any where near me I was going to invite you to coffee.

          • Frank

            Let’s have virtual coffee here.

          • Chris Gentry

            sorry to hear that. You can chat all you want, but I’m getting back in the saddle tomorrow. Can’t guarantee when I’ll be here next. Blessings and may the God of peace guide and protect you as you seek His face.

          • Frank

            Chris no offense but I am more interested in having these conversations so everyone can be a part of them. I am sure you are a great guy and we would probably be friends.

          • Val

            Psalms 30:2

            “O LORD my God, I called to you for help and you healed me.”

            Get feeling better soon.

            *hugs*

          • Chris Gentry

            Thank you and blessings

          • Val

            Welcome!!

          • thisisstupid

            Exactly, I said the same thing to you last time we had and argument. And now once again you have ignored what I wrote to you. So quite calling out others on this when you do the same thing. Oh, by the way let me show you love how you understand it. Frank, you are a hypocrite. You called this person out for not responding. Twice now in the last week or so you have not responded to me. Once you had an excuse. You are a sinner for being a hypocrite. If you don’t repent of your sins you are going to hell.
            Now don’t you just feel the love? This is how you tell people to love each other. By telling them what their sins are.
            By the way have some grace. Maybe Chris hasn’t seen your reply. That was your excuse to me.

          • Frank

            What was your question?

          • Frank

            Do you not consider Pharisees people?

          • Daniel Olson

            Chris…. you are wasting your time trying to reason with Frank on this matter. This is his soapbox, the line he has drawn in the sand and until he surrenders it to embrace something more Spirit led, we just need to pray for the healing of those who suffer for his legalism.

          • Frank

            Daniel the charge of legalism only exposes your own ignorance of the term and how it applies. If you think that letting people sin is spirit lead you are not connected to the Holy Spirit but some other spirit.

          • Chris Gentry

            Thanks Daniel. I know it’s tough discussing such things with people we disagree with however it is important. The Body of Christ is a beautiful thing and all believers should be respected because of it; irregardless of their views. Blessings, you are a wise man.

          • BuckCronkite

            Daniel: I’m pleased to have scrolled down and hit your response to Chris, as I was oh-so-close to giving Frank a piece of my mind, and subsequently losing my mind and the last of my patience. Frankly, Frank, I should’ve known from the onset that ‘RedLetter’ followers such as you would be infesting comment boards in all your self-righteous glory. Until I actually meet and can observe a ‘RedLetter’ follower 24/7 and weight their lives up against the Sermon on the Mount, I’ll consider them all to be PHARISEES of the worst degree.

          • Frank

            Are you speaking about me? I think you are confused.

          • Elijahsreturn

            Chris Gentry – some very interesting posts, but I’d like to know how we are supposed to preach the gospel and lead people to the Lord if you don’t allow them to see their sinful state in it’s entirety. Grace is not a licence to sin, but an empowerment to be transformed into Christ likeness.

            If the prophets followed your heavy leaning on love and tolerance over holiness and obedience, many true revivals would not have happened. All sin is paid for, yes, but for Christians, living in continuous rebellion seperates us from understanding and being obedient to the will of God. The will of God is not for any man to be in bondage to sin, but to be freed from sin by the atonement. If we all lived by your love and tolernace mandate, not only would the Holiness of God be diminished in the eyes of men, but there would be no true repentance and no true conversion to the kingdom.

          • Chris Gentry

            I would love to discuss this with you. You bring to the table both historical and theological issues that are relevant in today’s day and age. However, as I just stated below, this thread has veered from it’s intended purpose. We need to find another post under which to continue. I have asked any moderators to provide another posting or direct us to an existing one where we can continue. Blessings.

          • Elijahsreturn

            Chris, it doesn’t matter where we discuss this – here or on another post. This is a discus forum. I think there is a very important issue to be discussed here, which is about postmodernism and relative thinking, an unchanging God in a changing culture, and the teaching of false doctrine. I’d like to discuss it.

          • Frank

            I guess the best you’ll get is people running away from a necessary conversation. Telling.

          • Chris Gentry

            Hey Frank, still wanting to talk. Would it be easier to have my email address?

          • Frank

            I am more interested in having a public discussion than a private one.

          • Chris Gentry

            You are right to a point. This is a public forum for discussing issues important to us. However, out of respect to the author of this particular forum, I am trying to keep things on target. There are way to many rabbit trails here and that makes for not only a messy forum but a confusing one as well; especially for those trying to stay on topic and those new to this forum. I don’t want to get away from the very important topic which Tony has brought up.

          • Elijahsreturn

            Are you the site owner? If not I’m not sure what authority you hold apart from politeness:) This story was about sin, and the context of sin. Surely it is the same subject?

          • Chris Gentry

            No, just trying to be respectful. Which is more then I can say for half the comments here. If you don’t mind me asking, what is your background? For the most part your comments are respectful and well thought out. I find them fascinating. If your ok with sharing your background it’ll help me put your comments into perspective. I know Frank is watching and I’m curious about his background as well. My background is laid out in my first post.

          • thisisstupid

            One thing I have become aware after reading these posts is how much hate and sin I have in my own life. I have hated my mother and father by not constantly telling them that their divorce was a sin. I constantly hate my friends, relatives, people I see everyday by not telling them that their weight is a sin. I sin daily by not telling people all the time that by them not helping out the poor they will go to hell. I sin constantly by not letting people know that most the tv shows, movies, music, etc they let into their lives will send them to hell. I allow my neighbor to break the speed limit without telling him that is a sin. I have never told anyone that by them not reading the bible daily, being in prayer with God daily, giving God glory for everything that they are sinning. I even allow people I know to buy things like extra sheets for their beds, or cable tv, that they are sinning because they have material possessions when their neighbor is having a hard time feeding their children. Oh, how I have sinned by hating these people everyday.
            So I want to say that if any of you on here fall into these categories I have mentioned, or are greedy, haughty, covetous, looked at a member of the opposite sex for too long, been angry with someone that you are sinners and are going to hell. These are just a few of your sins. Please forgive me for hating you all so much.

          • Chris Gentry

            Wow, I don’t even know where to begin with that post. By your reasoning none of us will see heaven. No need to reply as i have neither the energy or time to get into theological errors and/ or specifics regarding your statement.

          • thisisstupid

            It was sarcasm in response to Frank. “Leaving people sinning without saying anything, without helping them overcome their sin, leaving them is disobedience to God is the worst act of hate possible.” “Yes all sins should be condemned.”

          • Chris Gentry

            Sorry my friend, I totally missed it. My bad.

          • John

            Thanks for this, TIS. My parents never divorced, and I’m not sure if I’m haughty (though I do love that word), but I think you nailed everything else. But you also forgot to apologise for your sarcasm. ;)

          • Frank

            Are you finished?

            When you are ready for a real conversation I’ll be here. Meanwhile ignoring sin is an act of hate.

          • thisisstupid

            Ok, first of all do you point out everyone’s sin as I did above? Easier question. Do you go up to everyone who is overweight and tell them they are a sinner? If the answer is no, why not? Aren’t you hating them then? Have you ever asked a coworker about their weekend while on the clock? If so why do you feel it is okay to take time away from you employer who is paying you to talk about stuff not related to work? Have you ever asked your church to allow you to speak to the congregation so that you can tell everyone who doesn’t tithe 10% that they are sinning? For the chance that you haven’t done this why is it okay to hate them by condoning their sin? Please don’t ignore these questions. You come here stating that this is the way we are supposed to live your lives. So please answer these questions honestly.

          • Frank

            If someone posts an article suggesting that it’s ok to let people be gluttons I will respond that its not. If someone posts something saying lying is ok and we shouldn’t call people out for it I will respond we should. Same for any other sin. This was an article about sexuality so I responded on topic.

            There is a difference between having a theological discussion and ministering to people. Admitting homosexual behavior is sinful and how we communicate that on an individual level are two different subjects. I stand by my statement that not speaking into someone’s life that we care about regarding their sinful, damaging behavior is an act of hate. The methodology of that speaking into some ones life is a discussion worth having.

          • thisisstupid

            I asked you three or so questions. You ignored them. Why? Here are a few of your quotes. “Leaving people sinning without saying anything, without helping them overcome their sin, leaving them is disobedience to God is the worst act of hate possible.” “Meanwhile ignoring sin is an act of hate.” “You are not loving anyone by not speaking into their life and teaching them Gods will for their life. You are actually practicing hate.”
            So I take it your answers to my questions are no. Correct? So you admit that you come on here telling people how we are supposed to live and act and yet don’t follow your own advice. This sounds very hypocritical. It sounds like your answer above means that we should only do what you say we should when it comes to article written on this site. Am I correct? I have to say by the advice you give on this site you are being both hypocritical and hateful by your own standards. I also have to say by the quotes above that a true Christian is more Westboro Baptist then anything else out there. Please don’t come here slamming peoples views when you yourself don’t follow what you preach.

          • Frank

            Oh please give us a break. When you are ready for an adult meaningful conversation I’ll be here.

          • thisisstupid

            No it’s not that easy. I want you to answer the questions. I feel if you are going to preach here on how we are supposed to do things and act, love, etc then you should follow them to. You lose all credibility when you don’t practice what you preach. I’m not going to drop this. You talk down to people coming off as your way is the only way to love God and follow Him properly. But then you don’t even believe what you say because you don’t do it. That is very hypocritical. So why don’t shed some light on this topic. Help me to understand this.

          • Frank

            Once again reread my response and tell me what question I have not answered. I don’t want to drop this either.

          • thisisstupid

            “There is no love is condoning, affirming, accepting, celebrating or remaining silent about sinful behavior.” You post this comment on almost every topic you someone writes about here that you don’t agree with. So I feel we should be able to have an adult meaningful conversation on this. Just because you have been called out doesn’t mean my questions to you are childish.

            “I am more interested in having a public discussion than a private one.” This is in response to Chris. So let’s do it. Or.

            “I can’t help but notice that you did not answer my questions. Very telling.”
            So once again you will call someone else out on something you don’t follow.

          • Frank

            I answered your questions. What question do you feel I have not answered? Ask it simply in a sentence.

          • thisisstupid

            Do you go up to everyone who is overweight and tell them they are a sinner? If the answer is no, why not? Aren’t you hating them then? Have you ever asked a coworker about their weekend while on the clock? If so why do you feel it is okay to take time away from you employer who is paying you to talk about stuff not related to work? Have you ever asked your church to allow you to speak to the congregation so that you can tell everyone who doesn’t tithe 10% that they are sinning? For the chance that you haven’t done this why is it okay to hate them by condoning their sin?

            Sorry, but that is as simple as I can put it. And I am not talking regarding posts on this website but in everyday life.”Meanwhile ignoring sin is an act of hate.” “You are not loving anyone by not speaking into their life and teaching them Gods will for their life. You are actually practicing hate.” Since you wrote this it sounds like we should do this to everyone we meet everyday.

          • Frank

            If an overweight Christian tried to suggest that I should love his or her sin of gluttony I’d tell them that I love them but not their gluttony.

            You can replace gluttony with any other sin and the answer would be the same.

          • thisisstupid

            I guess I see where you are coming from with that. When you say that remaining silent about others sin, ignoring sin is an act of hate, etc I took it as if someone sees sin we should confront them on it and not remain silent. It looks as if you meant if people try to suggest that their sins aren’t sins then we should confront them. Sorry if I misunderstood you.

          • Frank

            Yes and I am sorry if I wasn’t clearer earlier. By rejecting ‘hating the sin’ we are in essence rejecting to love someone. What is the alternative? Love the sin? Being apathetic to the sin? Either one is an act of hate.

            Despite what some may believe I would much rather be in agreement with someone than not.

          • thisisstupid

            When you post some of the quotes that I quoted above it really sounds like you are saying we should do this all the time to everyone we meet. I think I understand you better now. That is why I wrote the big thing of calling out everyone on every sin. I thought that was what you were trying to say to us.
            I must say that you come off kind of harsh and like you are looking down on the op or people that post here. I am starting to believe that you don’t mean to come off this way. But, it does seem like you find fault in most of what is on this site. I think it might be just because you have such a huge love of God that you maybe want to make sure everyone is living and believing correctly so that they are not damned to hell. But, you will always find people who don’t believe and interpret everything the same way you do. It doesn’t mean that they are wrong or that you are wrong.

          • Frank

            Yes I think you are coming close to understanding me and my purpose here.

            I am terse because I have clarity about certain things. I like to say things as simply and as straight forward as possible..

            This sites has many problems. Some good stuff but more less than good stuff and some terribly wrong stuff. In certain issues we all can’t be right. If you have a position you must fully back it up through scripture. More often than not we only get a partial picture here. Even the idea of Red Letter Christians misses the point so entirely that its tragic.

          • thisisstupid

            I will agree with you concerning the partial picture. I really doubt we will see eye to eye on here. I think that is okay though. I don’t think we have to either. It doesn’t mean one of us is totally correct and the other is totally wrong, and we will hopefully still end up in the at the same point when all is said and done. Like I said I think that I don’t totally understand you on what we went back and forth on. It sounds harsh to me, but you are typing it and it is difficult to gather what is going on in your head and heart from something typed out. I have someone close to me who is gay. We have let him know where we stand on the topic. I don’t ever see me accepting it as something that is alright in God’s eye. However, now I feel it is my job to love him and treat him just as I do and/or should any other sinner.

          • Frank

            I also have someone very close who is gay and I treat him the same way. What I never say is that I love your homosexuality. That would be hate.

          • Daniel Olson

            I was gonna say something… and I see your point. but i have decided that I’m going to start concerning myself with the planks in my own eyes before trying to remove whatever may be in yours. Peace to you Frank.

          • Donna Maxwell

            Is there a “Gluttony Pride Day” or a “Tell a Big Whopper Day”? How about “Greedapalooza”? No? Actually, we already shame folks via Thanksgiving ( we eat too much, it’s shameful), April 15th (who cheats on their taxes) and Christmas (would Jesus approve of this commercialism). Society and Christians take any opportunity to use teachable moments to change behavior.

          • Daniel Olson

            At least we love you, Frank. sorry… brother. I couldnt resist that one.

        • The Troy

          It seems your confusing teaching with sins. When Paul teaches to pray for our leaders and elected officials he is offering advice not establishing a new commandment. When Jesus teaches you to be forgiving and not to judge this too is advice that will help you live at peace to focus your own efforts on following the commandments set forth by the God of Abraham and not a new commandment in and of itself.

    • Zee

      How does it sound like judgement? We are to hate sin. There is no judgement in that, It doesnt mean you’re judging the persons value?

      • Scooch

        The very fact that we see *that* specific sin in our brothers eye is the log that is in our own eye. If we had no sin, we would not tell our brother their sin, but, instead, with the love of God say, “Hi, How are you doing Bro? Is there anything you need prayer for?”

        I just think, more-so as I get older, that LOVE is the way to help each other by genuine caring, not by genuine judging. However sincere and caring we think we are in judging, we are actually judging and that is a no-no!

      • Chris Gentry

        I know where you are going with this. I don’t mind the interaction, however this thread has strayed from the original topic. I encourage those who want to continue, to find a posting addressing sin in a post-modern world and let me know when and where. If the person(s) moderating this post can please direct us to a more appropriate post I would appreciate it.

        Blessings

        Chris

        • John

          Chris, having spent a lot of time in the comments section, I can tell you that the redirection you seek is very unlikely to happen, so I think you should just feel free to continue here.

          Interestingly, I submitted an article on Postmodernity a while back, but I think they passed on it. Ah well… I think Yaholo Hoyt was going to do one, and he’s a better writer than me anyway. So your hopes may soon be fulfilled.

          • Chris Gentry

            That would be nice. Maybe I should just write a post on Rob Bell’s book “Love Wins” and submit it. As distasteful as rereading that book would be, it would provide a great forum for many of these comments.

          • Steve Eldridge

            The problem with hating the sin is that, in practice, it translates directly to hating the sinner.
            Christ was perfect. We are far from that and we need to allow the Holy Spirit to work within an individual’s life to change and convict them in a manner that glorifies God. The Holy Spirit is in a constant state of work within my own life and I am grateful. If only I were to allow the same growth in the lives of my neighbors . . .

          • Chris Gentry

            I love it. You could not have put it in simpler terms.

          • John

            You’d certainly have a “lively” comments section. ;)

          • Chris Gentry

            Yes I would. Trying to manage it would be like herding cats! But I actually like the idea. I’ll pray about it and see if RLC would be interested.

          • Snommelp

            Hey John, ‘nother random question for you. How long does it usually take from submitting an article to that article being posted (if it will be posted)? I’ve got one running through my mind that would make the most sense if it was posted in early January, so I’m thinking I should sit on it for a while.

            And if I start annoying you with these questions about getting articles on this site, let me know and I’ll stop. I just sort of picked you out as my author guru.

          • John

            First, ask away. I don’t have all the answers, but I’ll do my best.

            Honestly, often when an article is published, it’s within 48 hours of submission. But, “submission” meaning the time he reads it. The content editor gets over 300 e-mails a day. So, sometimes I have to send an article twice or even three times to get a response/reading.

            And not everything is accepted. I’m probably at 50/50ish thus far.

            On at least two occasions, they were timely pieces, and he just got to them too late. One was an article about MLK. Can’t remember the other.

            You might send an e-mail flagging yourself up in mid-December, so that then when you send it in January, he’ll go, “Ah yes. This is one I’ve been expecting.”

            Good luck! :)

          • Snommelp

            I think I’ll do that, then. Thanks! Now I just have to actually write the thing :-P

    • Matt

      agreed, we need to stop turning sin into a tiered system;
      sin is sin.
      perhaps the real lesson to be learned for us in regard to the gay issue, and its a hard one, is that we have allot of fear and hostility inside ourselves (and our culture)that is just as sinful as the lust that is displayed in many homosexual encounters (and many heterosexual ones for that matter) –> when we take God’s place as judge, in *any* matter, then we elevate our own ego above that of another human being’s, we are very definitely NOT loving our neighbor as ourself

  • Barbara Blackburn

    We certainly seem to be sanctimonious here in our responses to this beautiful video. But, this is my journey and my experience. It was easy for me to be sanctimonious before I knew and loved people who are gay. It was so easy to judge them, and think that I was being loving, when, in fact, I was being self-righteous. I love how we pick and choose what we believe about the Bible, especially when trying to justify our ungodly attitudes toward people. We’ve made our scriptures into Pharisaical hoops that people have to jump through to gain our approval. But, nobody has to approve of anyone else, except God. Where is our love, where is our willingness to examine whether we are right or not? I love how people think they have God all figured out and that they cannot be possibly be wrong about anything.

    • Val

      You are so amazing. Thank you so much.

    • http://www.fordswords.net/ Ford1968

      Thank you so much for this edifying comment.

    • Frank

      I love how we pick and choose what we believe about the Bible, especially when trying to justify our or others sinful behaviors.

    • Vince

      Can you define who the “we” are?
      Also, there are things Christians are not or should not be wrong about and should be sure about. Such as the Biblical gospel of sin, repentance, faith and grace and our own salvation.

  • mary

    Love the sinner and hate your own sin. Pretty simple but oh so difficult.

    • Martin Peter Clarke

      mary. I find it extremely difficult and increasingly necessary to love my sinners: all the sinners I have ever been, to embrace having been a leper and the damage done to others and myself, not to cringe in shame and self-loathing. That God will make all things new is the ultimate act of faith for me now. That all damage done will be undone.

  • Onesimus

    I guess no one sees the irony in rendering judgement on those who are “judgemental”…? Judgemental people are bad, right?

    “God, I thank you that I am not like other men, racists, homophobes, misogynists, or even like this judgemental jerk.”

    • 22044

      Yeah, how do you break the “back & forth”?

    • Martin Peter Clarke

      And what about those judgemental of the judgemental of the judgemental?

  • wjgreen314

    Judgement is solely the purview of God and lasts for eternity. Discernment, wisdom, Godly perception — having the mind of Christ — and rebuke of sin and calls to repentance are temporal, the purview of mortal wo/men, and for strange and not often understood reasons God has delegated some of these to His Son’s disciples. Otherwise there is no logic, reason nor rhyme for the Great Commission and the crucifixion’s vicarious propitiation for our/their sins.

    • Martin Peter Clarke

      That’s your judgement whereby you are judged dubbyerjay.

  • eupheau

    yawn… i can’t believe we’re still talking about this. move on.

    • Frank

      I know. Homosexual behavior is a sin, thats never going to change. Let’s move on.

      • Martin Peter Clarke

        Oh it will. There’s no sex to go wrong in the fullness of the Kingdom.

        • Snommelp

          …or will there be? My mind went to the lectionary text from yesterday, the Sadducees questioning Jesus (Luke 20:27-38). And Jesus tells them that in the age to come, “they are like angels.” Now, Genesis 6 mentions Nephilim, born from the union of “sons of God” and “daughters of men,” and the “sons of God” are supposed to be a certain kind of angel. But going back to Luke, Jesus also tells the Sadducees that “those who are considered worthy of a place in that age and in the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage.” So if they/we do have sex in the Kingdom (which I admit I find doubtful, but it’s possible), then it would be out of wedlock.

          • Martin Peter Clarke

            For me it’s just beautiful, archaic, poetic, figurative language for boys and girls. The TaNaKh was edited right up until the Babylonian captivity from a thousand years and more of multiple literary and oral traditions, order of magnitude a hundred generations, a hundred versions. Clay tablets would have endured and would reduce that number. But what bronze age story tellers – no matter how inspired – said and wrote and what they meant bears no wild modern interpolation for me Snommelp. Whereas what Jesus said very plainly stands. For me.

          • Snommelp

            My line of thinking was that, whether fact or Inspired fiction, I can’t find any Biblical evidence to suggest that we can’t/won’t have sex in the Kingdom, just that we won’t marry. I may be missing something re: the sex thing. But if I’m not, it creates an interesting bit of cognitive dissonance; I think every person I’ve met who calls gay sex a sin also says that any sex outside of marriage is a sin, but if there’s sex in the Kingdom and no marriage, but there’s also no sinfulness in the Kingdom…

          • Martin Peter Clarke

            When we’re transcendently neotenously metamorphosed, greater than angels, we’ll know. Whatever we lose of this life – including lifelong idyllic erotic love – will not be missed.

  • Simple Man

    Leviticus 19 teaches us that part of loving your neighbour as your self is “Rebuke your neighbour frankly so that you do not share in their guilt”… Lev 19:17.

    • Simple Man

      This is the same passage quoted by Jesus in Mark 12 btw….

      • 22044

        Good stuff. Leviticus has three kinds of law: moral, ceremonial, & civil, I believe. The first kind of law continues for the new kingdom of God. Leviticus 19:17 would be an example of that.

        • Frank

          I would say four because some of the laws were health related. I wish everyone would understand the differences so we don’t have to keep hearing ignorant arguments about shellfish and fiber in regards to sexuality.

    • Chris Gentry

      Leviticus also says that men must wear beards or be put to death. Sorry, trying to be funny. But it’s true.

      • Simple Man

        Read Leviticus 19:9-17… does if bother you that Jesus quoted directly from this passage and stated that it contained the second greatest commandment?

        • Chris Gentry

          No it doesn’t. I like that passage and wish the greater church followed it. However you are right that God commands the believer to confront sin, but to his fellow Israelite. For us that would be fellow Christians. The Hebrew word is Yakach, which means many things including to correct and rebuke but in my study of the verse I get a sense of doing this out of love and unity; which is what we strive for in the church. I just had to do this myself, in love, in the church. In fact I’ve had to do this a few times. It’s not pleasant. But to non-Christains I take a different approach. I do as Jesus did, as the early church did and as the church fathers did. I’ve experienced tremendous and miraculous changes in People who rejected Christ because of the church but now embrass Him. I tell ya, it’s been a wild ride.

          • Simple Man

            Luke 10:25-37……. “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

          • Chris Gentry

            The answer is obvious. Here Jesus is teaching and correcting what today would be a Christain and a part of the Church. So I’m unclear as to your statement.

          • Simple Man

            So when Jesus says to ‘love your neighbour as yourself’ he
            is only referring to those within the church?
            Part of loving your neighbour is warning them of the consequences of
            sin.

          • Chris Gentry

            Let me reply with a question of my own. How are we to read scripture? I know it’s an odd question but please indulge me.

          • Simple Man

            The same way our Lord and the apostles did.

          • Chris Gentry

            Forgive me, but can you elaborate? What steps do you take to discern context, meaning vs. application, audience, translation and so forth.

          • Simple Man

            I could write all day on that, but the simplest concept is that scripture interprets scripture… the way the later scriptures interpret other prior texts, especially when it is Jeusus or the Apostles, is the way they should be understood. btw. You still haven’t answered my question.

          • Chris Gentry

            I only ask because the manner in which we interprate scripture is important. When I examined and studied the passage I felt that it was not only gentle but based in love. To answer your question i think Jesus’s example is best. He was gentle in confronting sin in the people, but when it came to confronting sin within the religious establishment he was forceful. I think everyone is our neighbor and should be treated accordingly.

          • Simple Man

            I agree, gentle, based in love, but also frank… consider the woman at the well ‘you have had five husbands and the man you now have is not your husband’ – Jesus did not mince words.

          • Martin Peter Clarke

            Who confronts yours Chris? Or do you confront others with yours, with your sin, your weakness, your ignorance and say, ‘Me too!’.

          • Chris Gentry

            Good question Martin, glad you asked. Sorry for the delay, this is the first time I’ve been on in days. I actually have a small group of people who hold me accountable and with whom I have NO secrets and vice versa. I also welcome other believers to call me on sin. If I agree, a repent immediately. If I don’t, I hold it up to scripture, pray and meditate on it and even go to my small group. If I find I agree and am convicted by the Spirit then I repent and ask forgiveness, and if need be to ask forgiveness from those I have sinned against. I’m not perfect Martin, I hope that’s not the impression I’m presenting. I’m just being honest in admitting that I need people to walk this path of life and faith with me, Godly people who love me and will encourage me, keep me accountable and if need be call me out. As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. If you don’t mind me asking, who holds you accountable?

          • Martin Peter Clarke

            Good answer Chris and thank you. Might I ask in general terms what needed correcting and rebuking in church? And I don’t mind you asking at all. Me. God, by His word, the peerless example of His Son and the prompting of the Holy Spirit. My wife. I that order. Is my honest perception. Which don’t mean it’s right! I find that I am constantly reproached by grace in others too. Like yourself. Culturally separated though we will be.

            I’m a very broken man Chris and there are things I can only discuss with God. Although I’ve come as close as sharing my penultimate issues in shocking detail with my wife and Vicar together, at their behest. The darkest has to remain between me and God from whom I hold back nothing. Absolutely nothing. I have inner Tourette’s Chris. Intrusive thinking. Self inflicted PTSD. Not that it shows externally. I’m able to protect my wife from it. God embraces me regardless.

            Believe me Chris, I know the Devil and his devices. All the evil I have done, to others and myself, will be undone in the times of the restitution of all things.

          • Elijahsreturn

            Are you a born again Christian Chris? I’d like to know your testimony if you have one. I tend to find that beyond born again Christians, living in the Kingdom and advancing it, the church is full of well meaning people, or people who think they are clever, but have no concept of truth. Is it rude to ask which of the three you are?

          • Chris Gentry

            It’s not rude to ask and I am glad to share my story. Needless to say, i am born again, I am redeemed by the blood of the lamb. My story is incredibly long and if I can figure out how to message your profile I will sit down later tonight and type it out for you. My story is unique and God has gone through great lengths to strip me of my sin ( an ongoing and painful process) and has led me to abandon the traditions I was brought up with and trained in to pursue pure biblical truth and to apply it to my own life, to teach it to others and to seek after and love the those in our society that are deemed unlovable. Let me figure out how to email you my testimony. If I can’t, I’ll post it here. Thank you for asking to here it. I’m honored.

          • Chris Gentry

            It’s not rude to ask and I am glad to share my story. Needless to say, i am born again, I am redeemed by the blood of the lamb. My story is incredibly long and if I can figure out how to message your profile I will sit down later tonight and type it out for you. My story is unique and God has gone through great lengths to strip me of my sin ( an ongoing and painful process) and has led me to abandon the traditions I was brought up with and trained in to pursue pure biblical truth and to apply it to my own life, to teach it to others and to seek after and love the those in our society that are deemed unlovable. Let me figure out how to email you my testimony. If I can’t, I’ll post it here. Thank you for asking to here it. I’m honored.

  • Todd Devitt

    And they will gather to themselves teachers who will tickle their ears…

    • Martin Peter Clarke

      You really don’t want to know how explicitly homophobic that is with one transposition.

  • Martin Peter Clarke

    Anybody here actually watched this? Anybody who has disagree with Tony? Who is a true conservative.

  • Martin Peter Clarke

    Leviticus 19:17 says Do not hate a fellow Israelite in your heart.

  • Martin Peter Clarke

    And of course a few verses further on it says: ‘If a man sleeps with a female slave who is promised to another man but who has not been ransomed or given her freedom, there must be due punishment. Yet they are not to be put to death, because she had not been freed. 21 The man, however, must bring a ram to the entrance to the tent of meeting for a guilt offering to the Lord. 22 With the ram of the guilt offering the priest is to make atonement for him before the Lord for the sin he has committed, and his sin will be forgiven.’

    • ishmael

      But now we don’t need to offer rams as guilt offerings anymore because Jesus died once for all for our sins. We still have to repent of them tho’ and then we are forgiven. This doesn’t mean it’s okay to keep repeating what we did wrong,, keep repenting and keep getting forgiven. We are to allow our hearts to be continually conformed to Jesus, so that we want to show him that since we love him we no longer want to commit sin.

      • Martin Peter Clarke

        We were all forgiven while we were yet sinners Ishmael. That is the horse, not the cart. I don’t know about you, but I am like the apostle Paul, thinking, saying, doing what I don’t want to do. In Christ.

  • Jeffrey George Tyma

    We are to love everyone even or enemies. But God’s word makes one thing perfectly clear. You have to accept Christ as your savior to go to heaven. In doing so you must give up any sin you hold onto with the help of the holy spirit. We will sin until we die living in the flesh. Once you die you stand in front of Christ in judgment. You do not get to say I was a good person and plea your case. The bible is clear on this. Christ looks at our hearts and sees if we truly repent- which means change. So of you are a thief, adulterer, fornicator. liar, idolator until you die and you don’t truly repent you have rejected the gift. Will you backslide at times? I know people who are gay struggle with their sexuality and we are to love them and tell them of God’s love. The problem lately is we are getting their agenda shoved down our throats with all the same sex marriage. No such thing, Man and woman. So we all have a choice, Obey God and repent when we sin or choose a sinful lifestyle, heaven pr hell is your choice

    • Martin Peter Clarke

      Where does it make that clear Jeff?

      • Jeffrey George Tyma

        John 3:18 “He
        who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been
        judged already, because he has not believed in the name of bthe 1only begotten Son of God. reject god in this life and you will not enter heaven, Any sex outside of marriage is a sin. God’s rules , since he knows what is best for us we are to obey this. No repentance of your sins until you die. You send yourself to hell. Martin do you read the word of God? Do you know of his perfect justice. I am a sinner like everyone else but I have accepted Christ and he is changing me and will be with him in heaven. will you?

        • Martin Peter Clarke

          No Jeff. He’s included me here and now. And everyone else but they don’t know it even as dimly and darkly and distortedly as we.

  • thisisstupid

    One thing I have become aware after reading these posts is how much hate and sin I have in my own life. I have hated my mother and father by not constantly telling them that their divorce was a sin. I constantly hate my friends, relatives, people I see everyday by not telling them that their weight is a sin. I sin daily by not telling people all the time that by them not helping out the poor they will go to hell. I sin constantly by not letting people know that most the tv shows, movies, music, etc they let into their lives will send them to hell. I allow my neighbor to break the speed limit without telling him that is a sin. I have never told anyone that by them not reading the bible daily, being in prayer with God daily, giving God glory for everything that they are sinning. I even allow people I know to buy things like extra sheets for their beds, or cable tv, that they are sinning because they have material possessions when their neighbor is having a hard time feeding their children. Oh, how I have sinned by hating these people everyday.

    So I want to say that if any of you on here fall into these categories I have mentioned, or are greedy, haughty, covetous, looked at a member of the opposite sex for too long, been angry with someone that you are sinners and are going to hell. These are just a few of your sins. Please forgive me for hating you all so much.
    I posted this in a response to someone. But, I also need to make sure everyone might see this.

    • Martin Peter Clarke

      Superb. I trust the irony was intended. If not … : )

      • thisisstupid

        Yes, it was. I don’t feel that this is a way to show my love.

  • Christophe

    I knew a professor of Christian Ethics who taught suicide was not a sin but a fundamental right for any human being. After a while we found out she had changed her theological stance on the matter after her own brother committed suicide. She wanted so badly for him to go to heaven that she built her theory of the moral right to commit suicide around it. My point is: you must never build your theology on your personal experience or emotional responses to events. Never. This leads straight to moral subjectivism and relativism. Whether a gay person we meet is a nice person or not doesn’t determine Christian moral theology about homosexuality. It would be like saying that it’s the person’s intentions that make his actions right or wrong. If someone sins but does so very sincerely and kindly, it doesn’t change what sin is.

    The whole argument that Tony Compolo puts forward here is wrong. He basically says that you cannot call out sin in others until you’ve gotten rid of every sin in your own life. But no one on earth has gotten rid of every sin in his life. This would mean that no one should ever call anything another person does a sin. This is his mistake: as a Christian I do not determine whether or not something is a sin based on how holy and sanctified I am or based on how sincere and friendly people who commit sin are. We are not the reference, God is, the Bible is. Basing whether or not something is a sin on our own holiness is making the whole original sin mistake all over again. “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” God determines what is good or evil, we don’t. We are to uphold God’s moral standards even if we’re not perfect yet. But when we preach it, we should lose our “holier than you” attitude, and learn to include ourselves into our exhortations. To a sinner, we mustn’t preach “You’re a sinner and I’m not” but “I’m a sinner like you and my sin isn’t any better than yours. Let’s call on the name of Jesus together.”

    • wjgreen314

      Bravo! Well said, brother. Let God be found true and every wo/man a liar!

      • Martin Peter Clarke

        You admit it dubbyerjay!

    • Martin Peter Clarke

      Aye, let’s.
      Let’s acknowledge how alienated, broken, ignorant, weak, blind, naked, deluded, fearful, perverted, fallen, unclean, unrighteous, unjust, prejudiced we all are to reach out to all others.

    • pyrophilia

      No. there is no such thing as evil. the reason god didn’t want adam to eat from the tree is because they would come to believe in polarity. Good and evil. They don’t exist. they’re illusions. to “sin” is to believe in them. to miss the mark.

      • Martin Peter Clarke

        Too radical even for me pyrophilia! But I like it. Jesus certainly didn’t polarize the people He lived among. He depolarized them. Those with the poles of power HAD to kill him therefore.

  • Elijahsreturn

    So Chris, not sure if you are going to reply to that one or not, so I’m going to show my hand, so to speak. I’ve been a christian for about 10 years. I was converted outside the church when I started to seek God, ran into some trouble over the course of a year or so, called on Him, He helped me out and then the Holy Spirit came into my kitchen one day, and I found out who God actually is. He was so Holy, I fell on my face:)

    Since my conversion, I have seen into the spirit relam and seen the demonic manifest, I have dealt with witchraft and the Lord has trained me on some other spiritual issues. I had a word at my baptism I have been called to be a ‘spiritual warrior’ – in the ten plus years since I became a Christian (none of my family are), I think it’s fair to say God is good to his word. I was pretty much dead to religion so I find the church a beautiful travesty.

    So……..your comment was…..’I hate the line “love the sinner, hate the sin.” Sounds like judgement to me.’ This alone shows me that you don’t see clearly. We should all hate sin, because sin is the enemy of the souls of humans, and our only true enemy as Christian is the devil – not gays, not adulterers etc. Sin debases humans, and if not dealt in Christians it can cause all sorts of enemy activity. You are a pastor, is that right?

    • Chris Gentry

      Wow, what an amazing story. I too hate sin, I just think my approach to dealing with it in others is different. In all things I seek to be obedient to Christ and it has cost me dearly. I was nearly paralyzed being obedient. I’ve experienced demonic attacks that have left marks on my body. I was going to email you my story but I’ll go for the short version. I accepted Christ at the age of six. But it wasn’t until I was 15 that I could no longer carry the burden of being abused in all manners and chose to end my life. God intervened before I could try and it was then that I fully gave myself to him. I surrendered fully and just a few years later he called me into ministry. Over the years of creating the best youth groups I could I found that I was just creating more members for the “club.” There was no love for others, no desire to truly serve and my superiors were happy. I became jaded and disenfranchised as I saw the body of Christ, in church after church that I served, grow fat on the Word of God and act nothing like Jesus Christ. I left, ready to quite when God brought me to a church that stripped away traditions, taught me to focus on the teachings of Christ and what it was to be a real follower of Christ. I was changed. I was a new man and my calling renewed. I still love the Bride of Christ, despite her many issues. Now I am a senior pastor/ chaplain. And now, instead of going for breadth, I go for depth. I confront sin where I find it, in love, in mercy and Grace. I wear no masks and put on no airs so that those God sends me to minister too see the real me and see God working in me to transform me. I can’t explain the emotions I feel, only that they drive me to love and show mercy regardless. I can go into more detail if you want as my story is complex. I’m now 39 and have been a believer for 33 years. I have gone from pew warmer, to foxhole Christian, to just walking in faith, trusting in my God to lead me as I daily surrender to Him. I have a lot to learn still despite my training and experience. In fact, the more I know, the more I realize how little I know. Thank you for trusting me with your story. I’m glad God brought us together.

      • Elijahsreturn

        that is a good story:) I’m also 39. I do like to hear the Holy Spirit, it puts me at rest. It sounds like you have been through some suffering, but know you are not alone in that.
        And the good news is, the Lord is working in His church, and is sovereign too. You are needed Chris, and you are right that human sin is not the biggest thing in regards to timing. The biggest thing in regards to timing is the way the world is changing, and the levels of luciferian influence in the very highest levels of power in this world. Take it from me, you’d be surprised: We have to start all waking up, and the church needs to be shaken. And it will be. Thanks for the chat, be blessed, and be encouraged, you will get your just reward.

        • Chris Gentry

          Thank you. You’re right, there is nothing more soothing then the whispers of Spirit. And I agree, Satan is at work at all levels everywhere. God will awaken those who are His and in the end He will separate the sheep from the goats.

          • Elijahsreturn

            The fear of the Lord leads to wisdom. And the fear of man is a snare.
            Two great pieces of advice given to me, and now to you. Take it easy, must sleep:)

  • wjgreen314

    Homosexual Domestic Violence Epidemic Raging

    It was ALWAYS Just a Matter of Time Before This Became the Headline!

    theatlantic dot com/ health/ archive/2013/11/ a-same-sex-domestic-violence-epidemic-is-silent/281131/

    • Jerry Reiter

      wjgreen, your link has ZERO to do with the tender and insightful video above. You are simply smearing an entire minority community, not loving at all.

      • wjgreen314

        I forgive you, in Jesus’ Name. The Truth, whole Truth, and nothing BUT THE TRUTH, so help us God is ALWAYS loving. As Jesus is the Wary, the TRUTH & the Life none of us should withhold the WHOLE Truth from any discussion on any topic. You’re welcome for being more fully apprised.

        • thisisstupid

          I don’t understand the point, sorry. Are you stating that this is only happening now between homosexuals and there is no more domestic violence between men and women?

          • wjgreen314

            Where is it written, “. . . there is no more domestic violence between men and women.”? I didn’t write it. Where did you read this?

          • thisisstupid

            I just don’t get where you are going with the link. I guess I should have asked what your point was.

  • Jerry Reiter

    Racists always used to say that “some of my best friends are black” and now bigots say the same thing about gays. What makes that especially cruel is that they do so following a story about a gay Christian kid who committed suicide due to judgmental Christians. Listen to the actual story above and you won’t spew the same old tired rants.

    • Frank

      Anyone who commits suicide has mental health issues and sin issues which lead them to tragically devalue their life. I have several family members who have committed suicide, not because of their sexual brokenness or identity brokenness but I know full well the tragedy of it. No one can make someone take their life.

  • Steve

    By all means we should confront the sin in others but first we much seek out the Holy Spirit first. With prayer we can then be led to know if the Spirit has paved the way for the truth to shine otherwise it will fall on deaf ears and we may be responsible for further wounding a person we care about. Confronting another’s sin should not be something we do without the Holy Spirits guidance. Also just an observation, the only people I read of Jesus really calling out on their sin are the religious zealots not the prostetutes and tax collectors. He loved, ate, and drank with them. I have a hard time imaging the prostetutes wanting to hang out if all Jesus was doing was telling them they were sinning. I rather think they saw his heart, and wanted to change because of who he was/is not cause of him convicting their lawlessness. Actions are so much louder than words. Actions show more love than words as well. Show the sinner what life can be like without the sin don’t take the easy way out and tell them.

    • Frank

      I agree the HS must be involved.

      Go and sin no more is clear as day.

  • mpierce

    It amazes me how many Christians don’t get this. I think it is probably because they don’t want to. Scripture couldn’t be more clear. We are not called to judge the world. In fact we are told NOT to. Sinners sin because that is what they do. We shouldn’t even expect different. The “rules of engagement” COMPLETELY change when one professes to be a follower of Jesus Christ. Couldn’t be more clear. After repeated attempts to correct a professing Christian on a defiant and unrepentant sinful behavior/pattern/lifestyle we are to “expel” said professing believer and not even have meals with them. Study it. Learn it. And even though you do not like it – accept it because it is Gods word. The words defiant and unrepentant are critical. The problem with the churches response to the one specific sin of homosexuality is that the world view is winning the battle for our minds. That is what makes this one different. I have no problem with a brother who struggles with homosexuality. I have a huge problem with a brother who struggles with homosexuality and claims that it is perfectly in line with Gods will. I have an even bigger problem with a church that backs him up on this. I am no more or less a sinner than anyone reading this. But I will not call my sin OK – - I will not justify it – - -I will not claim that God is OK with it. That is a horribly dangerous road. And anyone who truly loves me would not let me.
    All who disagree with me will be quick to point to the woman at the well. Great story. What were Jesus’ last words to her? “Go and sin no more”. What if this woman had joined the church and years later Paul had come to visit and she was still living the same sinful life with no repentance or contrition. What would he have said? Oh yes – we already have that answer – - Expel her.
    First remove the plank from your eye – - -THEN you will see clearly to help your brother with the speck in his eye.
    This is really not that complicated. That is if we are willing to take Gods word at face value. But increasingly so we are not. That is unfortunate.

    • wjgreen314

      Judgment is for eternity and falls entirely under God’s purview. The Great Commission tasks us with going to the ends of the earth, to rebuke sin, call people to repentance and faith, to adjure them to obedience, and to give their fealty to the sinless, resurrected Jesus, and thereby MAKING DISCIPLES!

  • LilahJ

    This is pretty powerful stuff. It does my heart good to hear leaders trying to teach understanding and compassion. It is inspriational that a mother would want to stand with her son on judgement day and extoll his virtues in hopes of saving his soul. But I hope that she stands in judgement and apologizes for not letting him know that she loved him no matter what.

  • Abby

    I appreciate the difficulty of recognizing homosexuality as a sin when we love someone who is homosexual. The only reason our attitude is different about homosexuality versus murder or adultery is because we have been pushed by an humanistic agenda to accept it. And while you and I might want to overlook homosexuality, the Creator, whom we all claim to love, has declared it an abomination. If we take the decision for what it is out of His hands, then we have raised ourselves above Him.

    The Bible is clear on how we should treat those who flagrantly rebel against God’s law. The best example is in 1 Cornithians chapter 5. Here Paul clearly says we should, and I quote:

    1Co 5:5 deliver such a one to Satan for destruction of the flesh, in order that his spirit be saved in the day of the Master Yeshua.

    He also declares that we as a body are surely to judge those in our assembly who have sinned (with testimony from 2 or more witnesses) and forbid them entry to the community until they repent. Does this mean we shun them at the individual level? No, but we continuously bring the conversation back to how God wants us to live.

    Finally, the folks here, including the gentleman in the video, seem to be somewhat unclear on what loving one another actually is. The Bible is also clear on this:

    2Jn 1:5 And now I ask you, Kuria, not as though I wrote a fresh command to you, but that which we have had from the beginning: that we love one another.
    2Jn 1:6 And this is the love, that we walk according to His commands.

  • TheodoreSeeber

    My belief about the role homosexuality plays in a culture comes not from the Bible, but from what I see in the lives of the gay people I know.

    Unfortunately, what I see, even in supposed “loving, committed” homosexual relationships, is a tissue of lies that doesn’t fit with physical reality, especially the propagation of gender confusion instead of treating it for what it really is, a mental illness. How can you love a person with a mental illness, without trying to cure that illness?

    • DrewTwoFish

      But you can’t “cure” homosexuality. So, now what?

      • TheodoreSeeber

        Now what is to accept the cross of our sexuality, and turn it into love, through practice of chastity.

        Just like heterosexuals are also supposed to do.

        It’s called actually dealing with the problem, and caring about the people we supposedly love instead of turning them into objects of lust.

        • DrewTwoFish

          OK. Are you coming alongside chaste homosexuals (and heterosexuals), welcoming them into your family? (Monthly church dinners don’t count.) Or is your love limited to the admonition to keep one’s pants on? (Hopefully, the former. If so, kudos to you!)

          So being sexually attracted to someone negates loving them? Heterosexuals form bonds based on mutual sexual attraction too but that is immediately reduced to lust. If you dismiss homosexual relationships only as mutual lusting I think you’ll have some difficulty in bringing them to Christ, assuming that is a concern of yours.

          I’ve never heard Tony Campolo endorse homosexual behavior even in my personal correspondence with him. It seems to me that a lot of commentators on the site have rushed to that conclusion. One needn’t agree with homosexual behavior to refrain from cruelty and shouldn’t mean that we’re let off the hook from loving and encouraging each other, i.e. “dealing with the problem”, OUR problem.

          • DrewTwoFish

            Whoops. Sorry. Should have said, “…but that is NOT immediately…”

          • TheodoreSeeber

            ” Are you coming alongside chaste homosexuals (and heterosexuals), welcoming them into your family?”

            Absolutely. Same with chaste heterosexuals during that dangerous 12-25 age span where one wrong love affair can make it feel like the entire world has come tumbling down and it isn’t worth living anymore (I’ve had four cousins attempt to commit suicide over it- and only two were homosexual).

            Yes. Lust without love is always wrong. Friendship *must* come first, and I equally dismiss heterosexual relationships as being wrong when they fail to come up to that standard (the divorce rate is far more worrisome to me than the gay marriage rate). “Bringing them to Christ” is far less of a concern than the murder-suicide pacts that often happen in that age group, it’s hard to bring a dead person to Christ. Promiscuity, whether heterosexual or homosexual, is dangerous; homosexuality just adds the fun of being a particularly disease ridden and human hating subgenre (but is far from alone in that respect).

            Teach chastity and respect for the human person first- end this lust-driven “free love” experiment- and the rest will follow. Woodstock was 44 years ago, it’s time to emerge from the destruction that generation caused and to work for something better.

          • DrewTwoFish

            Geepers, Theodore. We don’t agree on a lot but I was starting to see some common ground with your fairness (consistent standards) and what I sensed as some degree of compassion. However, I felt slapped in the face with “disease ridden and human hating subgenre.”

          • TheodoreSeeber

            I have no other way to describe the idea that your lust comes before your partner’s health, whether homosexual or heterosexual. Center for Disease Control evidence has proven beyond any shadow of a doubt that MSM homosexuality is 48x as likely to spread disease as heterosexual promiscuity. But there is a solution- chastity. Actually respecting you partner enough NOT to give into lust. Actually caring about them as a human being. And that is something both the heterosexual and homosexual communities need- and what was missing from an entire generation of Americans.

            I’ve got plenty of compassion, what I don’t have is empathy- and that’s my mental illness for which I’ve been ostracized myself (autism). And I certainly don’t cut any slack for those who would make the problem worse by denying that promiscuity is a major spread of disease, or that the homosexual community isn’t so promiscuous that you can actually find a partner who is a virgin.

          • DrewTwoFish

            Again, at least you’re even handed. Given that, don’t you agree that it’s almost as difficult to find heterosexual partner who isn’t a virgin? I suppose it depends if we’re talking about a particular community or the population at large.

          • TheodoreSeeber

            Yes, it most certainly is- and that is also a huge problem. I know far too many of even my Catholic schoolmates who 20 years ago were conservative, but today are divorced and remarried, who seem to consider sexuality as recreation rather than procreation, and who don’t have any respect for the other gender.

            If you get rid of the propaganda, only 2% of any given society are truly homosexual (that is, have had a birth defect resulting in alternative brain structures visible on an MRI; genetic studies have pretty much ruled out the “It’s genetic” argument). By far and large, the biggest destructive force on human nuclear families is divorce, not homosexuality. Those defending traditional, sacramental marriage should start with divorce and a proper understanding of marriage being not for the adults being married, but for the children, not only those that will naturally result from the union but also as an example to other children that know the family.

            Virginity has a purpose, and that purpose needs to be preserved. Marriage has a purpose, and that purpose needs to be preserved. It is time to end this experiment in recreation that has destroyed both.

          • DrewTwoFish

            I must admit I’m a little gobsmacked. I’ve run across a conservative Christian on this blog who I disagree with on many points. That is no surprise here. But you use science, employ reasoning, and avoid pulpit pounding and the endless regurgitation of bible verses. A breath of fresh air. Again, though I heartily disagree with you on many points I appreciate your respectful tone.

            As for genetics, I suppose it depend how we define the term but your point is well taken. You might find this interesting if you haven’t stumbled over it already: youtube dot com/watch?v=saO_RFWWVVA&list=PLuALkadyJ1ehGhzk1nawk-ebpvuzE–b8

          • TheodoreSeeber

            I’m familiar with the theory of Epigenetics, but I’m not convinced by it yet (and likely won’t be until genetics is capable of a DNA scan to tell homosexual from heterosexual).

            Having said that, some heterosexuals seem to have a much tougher time getting their hormones under control as well. Having a predisposition for bad behavior does not remove the duty to suppress bad behavior, unless you’re willing to let somebody like me act autistic in public without being tazed by the cops, or let a kleptomaniac shoplift because they can’t help it.

            THAT is what I see the Gay Pride Parade people doing: “We want to destroy your civilization, and if you oppose us, it’s because you are not tolerant enough”.

          • DrewTwoFish

            sorry. shift key not working well.

            anyway, you had me for a bit. i think we can both agree that we don’t really know as yet how sexuality develops and just because you feel something doesn’t mean you should do it.

            we start to part ways when you compare homosexuality to things like stealing. if one is practicing safer sex and religion is out of the picture i’m hard pressed to see the harm. i do see many benefits for the individuals involved.

            i really don’t get the leap to “we want to destroy your civilization”

            i think you might find justin lee’s site illuminating…google: crumbs from the communion table

          • TheodoreSeeber

            There is no such thing as safer sex when it comes to homosexuality, according to the Center for Disease Control.

            The leap to “want to destroy civilization” comes directly from the militant homosexuals like Dan Savage who would prefer forced abortions for every pregnant woman for the next 30 years to solve an imaginary population problem- by exterminating the human race. And those who want to use gay marriage as an “alternative lifestyle” to do something similar- reduce the population of the planet. It’s an anti-humanist philosophy that has come out of the free love movement of the 1960s- and that’s where the real problem starts, with the freedom to do evil whenever one feels like it.

          • DrewTwoFish

            it’s odd. i find myself incredibly insulted at some point with each comment of yours yet, oddly, i am not dissuaded from liking and respecting you. i don’t get it

          • TheodoreSeeber

            Maybe you need to take some time to pray about it, to figure out where that insulted feeling is coming from. It is entirely possible that I am the one who needs correcting- and if so, you may be able to discover, with help of the Holy Spirit, a way to use reason, tradition, and scripture (as opposed to emotion), to make me see the light.

            You see, I came to my view not from scripture alone, but from reason, tradition, and science. There is a reason why heterosexual monogamous marriage became the norm in our civilization- and in return, that our civilization became strong because of it. Destroying that norm, as a much larger minority than just homosexuals has been trying to do for the past 60 years, is in and of itself dangerous. Of course, I’m part of a religion that has been officially teaching against divorce and contraception for 2000 years, without much success in the last 500.

          • DrewTwoFish

            Well, to be frank, i’m not a christian any more. it might even be a stretch to call myself agnostic.

            i think the ‘like’ comes from the fact that you’re actually engaging in a conversation unlike many here. you haven’t left your brains on the shelf. and you’re humble enough to admit that you might be wrong about some things.

            i do get my dander up about “gays wanting to destroy civilization”. there may be anarchists among us but i’d wager that most of the company i keep is simply looking for the same things as straight people: connection, belonging, security, etc.

          • TheodoreSeeber

            Part may also be that I’m a Catholic Monarchist who thinks that the Constitution itself was a pretty bad idea, not to mention the Protestant Rebellion and the laughable falling of spiritual darkness that they called the “Enlightenment”. The world’s been getting worse for a very long time, and neither you nor I are at the start of it (and I very much doubt we’ll be at the end- already the white papers are being written claiming that pedophilia isn’t a mental illness either).

  • wjgreen314

    ONE good thing about Bill de Blasio’s elevation to public prominence as New York City’s Mayor Elect: his marriage to a well-known “ex-lesbian” virtually proves that homosexuality is a CHOICE, that can change!

    Once a Lesbian NOT always a Lesbian!

    “I am NOT a Free Marketeer. I believe in the HEAVY HAND OF GOVERNMENT.”

    - NYC Mayor Elect, Bill de Blasio speaking to New York Real Estate Business/women; honey-mooned in Communist CUBA with his ex-lesbian bride, was an ardent supporter of the ruling Nicaraguan Sandinista government, which was at that time opposed by the Reagan administration, and who is hell-bent on killing the golden geese that lay NYC’s golden eggs.

    • DrewTwoFish

      Republican first, Christian second.

      • wjgreen314

        Repent. Be a Christian FIRST, a Republican Second, and never a Godless Progressive parading under the Democratic Party Mascot’s ASS.

        • DrewTwoFish

          Same mindset. Black and white thinking: Republicans by default more “godly” than Democrats. Hard to engage people in a conversation and draw them to Christ when you’ve already written them off in one fell swoop.

          • wjgreen314

            Darkness vs Light – they have no fellowship. The LIGHT chases away the DARKNESS but the darkness remains in the absence of light: Theology 101. Sin is sin and is associated with darkness. Righteousness is righteous and associated with light.

            I made two points: Homosexuality is NOT something that people are FORCED into because they were “born that way.” They’re not. Like every behavior it is CHOSEN; and can be repented off and a new behavior chosen. Chirlane epitomizes that for us. See links below.

            Second: Bill de Blasio’s political-economic ideologies stem from un-contested atheists Karl Marx, Vladimir Lenin, Che Guevara, Fidel Castro, et al. He does NOT refute this.

            Stop apologizing for and making excuses for the Godless who do NOT for themselves.

            nydailynews dot com/ news/ election/de-blasio-wife-chirlane-mccray-talks-lesbian-article-1.1339398

            nymag dot com/ thecut/2013/05/bill-de-blasios-wife-explains-human-sexuality dot html

  • Pamela

    Yikes. You make a compelling and emotional argument…except it’s still wrong. If the person you are referring to was a thief or an adulterer or a murderer, we wouldn’t be so quick to “accept” him or her. The fact that one’s son/daughter/cousin is a homosexual does not suddenly make it OK, any more than one’s son/daughter/cousin is a their or adulterer or murderer or [fill in the blank sinner]. Until you recognize this Truth, you are advancing the cause of evil.

  • http://about.me/jonathan.boegl JS Boegl

    I agree Tony – “love the sinner and hate the sin” simply isn’t Biblical.
    “Arrogant people cannot stand in your presence; you hate all who behave wickedly.” Psalm 5:5

  • anon

    I
    have always loved Tony Campolo. He was my favorite speaker at our
    youth conference (I bought the recording), and I bought a book of his,
    later on, and it’s one of the best books I’ve read…. but I disagree with this. Anything that is a sin, is
    harmful. It’s harmful to oneself, or someone else, or society as a
    whole- physically, emotionally, relationally, spiritually…. I hate
    drug use because it hurts others. I hate street-racing because it hurts
    (or endangers) others. Greed and materialism and individualism hurt
    others. If I love someone, and they are doing something that is harmful
    to them, I am going to hate it BECAUSE I love them. It’s true that we
    shouldn’t focus on the sin of others and ignore our own, but there are
    also verses about confronting people in love. The fact that we recognize
    our own sins is important. It enables us to be on a equal and
    non-attacking level when we address sin in someone we love.

  • JANET SMITH

    IS AGREEING WITH GOD’S WAYS JUDGMENT? IS AGREEING WITH WHAT GOD SAYS IS RIGHT OR WRONG, JUDGMENT? MAYBE I SHOULD BE A THIEF. IT WILL BE OK.

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